From Spain to Germany, farmers warn of fresh food shortages • Hacker News Board

Re: From Spain to Germany, farmers warn of fresh food shortages

#111

Post by Scoundreller » Sat, Mar 28, 2020, 6:36 PM UTC

aazaa wrote: post #60

> From Huelva to Hamburg and Newcastle to Naples, Europe’s farmers are struggling to find people to bring in rapidly ripening fruits and vegetables, which frequently must be hand-picked, usually within a window of just a few days. They typically rely on seasonal workers from eastern Europe or northern Africa, but fears of the coronavirus are keeping hundreds of thousands of migrant laborers from leaving home, and con…

> it takes actual work to grow, harvest, and distribute crops.

I look forward to the test of "Europeans don't want to do _____ work" when the shit-pay factor is removed.

Re: From Spain to Germany, farmers warn of fresh food shortages

#112

Post by yunusabd » Sat, Mar 28, 2020, 6:37 PM UTC

baybal2 wrote: post #97

yunusabd wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your second link goes to a still image. I assume you mean this [1] video? Though I don't see how that supports the statement that China has spent a big portion of its national reserve. [1] https://twitter.com/laurie_garrett/status/122072527639456563...

China imports a gigantic amount of food, and ports were first to be hit by disruption . As a person who works in OEM electronics in China, I can tell at least that. So, at any normal day, China would've been eating 30-32% of world's food by value, while producing 20% of it by itself. Agriculture has been on shutdown for the past 2.5 months. Farms have slaughtered a large portion of their livestock, and a big portion…

Certainly sounds plausible. I was trying to point out that the video doesn't do much in substantiating these claims. If you have another source, I'd be interested in reading more.

Re: From Spain to Germany, farmers warn of fresh food shortages

#113

Post by cma » Sat, Mar 28, 2020, 6:37 PM UTC

GordonS wrote: post #86

yellowbeard wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tools can be shared. It's also amazing how little land is needed to grow enough food to live on. One person can be fed from around 9 square meters. In dense cities people may not have that much land, but in many areas, people do have that much land in their yards.

Do you have a source that the 9sqm claim? It seems... completely unbelievable. My wife's parents grow various vegetables in an area of that size, and there is no way it could provide all their vegetable needs.

If you grew potatoes you’d get 15000-45000 calories out of 9 sq meters. Not enough. 9mX9m (81sqm) and at the high end of yield you could get above starvation.

Re: From Spain to Germany, farmers warn of fresh food shortages

#114

Post by dheera » Sat, Mar 28, 2020, 6:38 PM UTC

Noumenon72 wrote: post #62

dheera wrote: post #22

To get past the paywall, paste this into the console: document.body.dataset.paywallOverlayStatus="hide";document.querySelector("#graphics-paywall-overlay").remove(); I think it is unethical to put information regarding an epidemic behind a paywall.

We want information about the pandemic, don't we? If we do not pay for it, all we will get is what people figure out in their spare time while confined to their homes. Without paywalls, we would just have Kickstarters like "If everyone who wants to know whether farmers are able to produce fresh fruit gives me $5, I will go and ask them!" You can always get the information by word of mouth or waiting. The amount you'r…

I disagree, I think when it comes to a pandemic or any other public safety issue, immediate access to information should be free.

FWIW NYT has disabled the paywall on all their articles about coronavirus (although there's still a loginwall).

We shouldn't be putting prices on human lives.

Re: From Spain to Germany, farmers warn of fresh food shortages

#115

Post by phenkdo » Sat, Mar 28, 2020, 6:39 PM UTC

jellicle wrote: post #91

DoreenMichele wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And because young people are less physically fit than they used to be, so they don't have the muscle and stamina required by such jobs. But the reasons why are almost irrelevant. The pertinent detail is that employers can't fill these jobs without immigrant labor. Most Americans don't want them at any pay rate.

I would suggest advertising some fruit-picking jobs at a guaranteed $50/hour to test your theory that Americans don't want them at any pay rate.

At that pay rate, your grocery bill will rise 5x-10x and while that might not bother you, there are several people from whom that's a death knell.

Re: From Spain to Germany, farmers warn of fresh food shortages

#116

Post by simonh » Sat, Mar 28, 2020, 6:39 PM UTC

klipt wrote: post #101

aazaa wrote: post #60

> From Huelva to Hamburg and Newcastle to Naples, Europe’s farmers are struggling to find people to bring in rapidly ripening fruits and vegetables, which frequently must be hand-picked, usually within a window of just a few days. They typically rely on seasonal workers from eastern Europe or northern Africa, but fears of the coronavirus are keeping hundreds of thousands of migrant laborers from leaving home, and con…

Hopefully this won't lead to any actual starvation? As I understand it, staples like grains and root vegetables can mostly be harvested by machine. While it would be sad to waste fruits and leafy vegetables, I expect you can survive without them for quite a while, especially if you have access to multivitamins.

I don't think there's much risk of serious food shortages. We'll just be eating more staples and fewer exotics and luxury foods. That may mean less meat, so we can use the grains those animals would usually eat to feed us. The economic impact on farmers, as on many other industries will be pretty traumatic and we'll have to decide as society how to deal with all of that, but we'll still be able to eat.

Re: From Spain to Germany, farmers warn of fresh food shortages

#117

Post by m0zg » Sat, Mar 28, 2020, 6:40 PM UTC

And that's what your average HN reader does not understand when they talk about keeping the country closed down forever. Groceries aren't put on the shelves by a grocery fairy. They can't be put there by the government or a central bank. They actually have to be grown or imported, both of which can be problematic if you shut everything down and disrupt the supply chains.

Re: From Spain to Germany, farmers warn of fresh food shortages

#118

Post by mellow2020 » Sat, Mar 28, 2020, 6:40 PM UTC

Zenst wrote: post #2

Hopefully this may incentivize people to be a bit more self-sufficient. Gardens that you grow your own, allotments - the mentality of that has been driven away over decades and now people are starting to smell the roses and realize they can't eat them. So in many avenues - complacency gets highlighted more and I'm sure many and much will change on the back of this period in time. Overall I'd say for the better. Certa…

> Certainly the environment is doing better,

I wouldn't be so sure (yet) about the overall outcome. For example, the EPA just suspends enforcement of all environmental laws "because corona".

https://thehill.com/policy/energy-environment/489753-epa-sus...

> The Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) issued a sweeping suspension of its enforcement of environmental laws Thursday, telling companies they would not need to meet environmental standards during the coronavirus outbreak.

> The temporary policy, for which the EPA has set no end date, would allow any number of industries to skirt environmental laws, with the agency saying it will not “seek penalties for noncompliance with routine monitoring and reporting obligations.”

Re: From Spain to Germany, farmers warn of fresh food shortages

#119

Post by gambiting » Sat, Mar 28, 2020, 6:41 PM UTC

chrisseaton wrote: post #82

gambiting wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Around London and a lot of the "south". But come out to Yorkshire or Northumberland and you can buy a farm and some land for very little. Living outside of the city in Northumberland(say within 30 minute driving distance to Newcastle) can be stupidly cheap.

> Living outside of the city in Northumberland(say within 30 minute driving distance to Newcastle) can be stupidly cheap. Shame there aren't many decently paying jobs there, though. Unless you work remotely I'm not sure what there is compared to the south east?

That wasn't the point though - the point was that farm workers don't live close to farms anymore, because British countryside has gotten really expensive. Well, if you work at a farm in Northumberland you can rent a room pretty much anywhere in the area for a few(3-4) hundred pounds, maybe even less.

Obviously that doesn't negate the broader point - North of England isn't where most farms are, after all. And places where most farms are, are expensive.

Re: From Spain to Germany, farmers warn of fresh food shortages

#120

Post by cma » Sat, Mar 28, 2020, 6:42 PM UTC

banmeagaindan2 wrote: post #96

DoreenMichele wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And because young people are less physically fit than they used to be, so they don't have the muscle and stamina required by such jobs. But the reasons why are almost irrelevant. The pertinent detail is that employers can't fill these jobs without immigrant labor. Most Americans don't want them at any pay rate.

It does not need to be most Americans and a lot of office workers would prefer to be farmers if the wage were correct. We have markets - let the prices rise and we will see more farmers in the future. E; I know it is not your theory Doreen - but it is a popular species of liberal (meaning democrat + republican) political propaganda. Everything Moravec's Paradox ever said, everything Peter Thiel ever said about automa…

Thiel also said companies shouldn’t have big cash reserves because it is a sign of running out of ideas.