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America's bailed-out airlines are not 'playing fair' with customers

finance.yahoo.com

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Re: America's bailed-out airlines are not 'playing fair' with customers

#11

Post by dominotw »

orthecreedence wrote: post #4

If we give bail outs, we should get stock/control. End of story. All bailed out companies should be nationalized to some extent, depending on the value of their stock and how much the government buys. A board/council of nationally elected representatives should manage whatever share of these companies the government owns. It's time the citizens started getting a return on their tax dollars if they're being used for p…

>All bailed out companies should be nationalized to some extent

Is there an example of nationalized company that operates in free market and still manages to turn a profit for the investors(citizens).

I wouldn't make an investment in usps or amtrak as a citizen with profit motive as a tax payer.

Re: America's bailed-out airlines are not 'playing fair' with customers

#12

Post by T-hawk »

orthecreedence wrote: post #4

If we give bail outs, we should get stock/control. End of story. All bailed out companies should be nationalized to some extent, depending on the value of their stock and how much the government buys. A board/council of nationally elected representatives should manage whatever share of these companies the government owns. It's time the citizens started getting a return on their tax dollars if they're being used for p…

Serious question: do we have historical comparisons, can we refer to instances where nationalizing in the wake of a bailout led to positive results?

The one comparable I can think of in the US is Amtrak, which is functional although not exactly wildly successful.

Re: America's bailed-out airlines are not 'playing fair' with customers

#13

Post by thedance »

dvtrn wrote: post #6
macintux wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As much as I'd love to pile on to this question, HN isn't a place for general political arguments, and this isn't a productive discussion for this site.

“HN isn't a place for general political arguments” I wish we’d stop lying to ourselves about this.

"we" aren't lying about it to ourselves. It's enforced from the top down because VCs (such as the benefactors of this site) strongly prefer that their founders ignore culture and society to focus 100% on business. The lack of politics on HN is not some kind of community consensus.

Re: America's bailed-out airlines are not 'playing fair' with customers

#14

Post by orthecreedence »

T-hawk wrote: post #12
orthecreedence wrote: post #4

If we give bail outs, we should get stock/control. End of story. All bailed out companies should be nationalized to some extent, depending on the value of their stock and how much the government buys. A board/council of nationally elected representatives should manage whatever share of these companies the government owns. It's time the citizens started getting a return on their tax dollars if they're being used for p…

Serious question: do we have historical comparisons, can we refer to instances where nationalizing in the wake of a bailout led to positive results? The one comparable I can think of in the US is Amtrak, which is functional although not exactly wildly successful.

This is why I suggest operating the companies via a democratically-elected board. If the management sucks, vote them out.

Re: America's bailed-out airlines are not 'playing fair' with customers

#15

Post by macintux »

thedance wrote: post #13
dvtrn wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“HN isn't a place for general political arguments” I wish we’d stop lying to ourselves about this.

"we" aren't lying about it to ourselves. It's enforced from the top down because VCs (such as the benefactors of this site) strongly prefer that their founders ignore culture and society to focus 100% on business. The lack of politics on HN is not some kind of community consensus.

Or perhaps because political arguments online are 99.9999% ineffective at changing anything, and 99.9999% effective at causing discord.

I assume someone, somewhere was once swayed by a random stranger to change their mind, but it doesn't happen often enough to outweigh the costs.

Re: America's bailed-out airlines are not 'playing fair' with customers

#16

Post by tehwebguy »

T-hawk wrote: post #12
orthecreedence wrote: post #4

If we give bail outs, we should get stock/control. End of story. All bailed out companies should be nationalized to some extent, depending on the value of their stock and how much the government buys. A board/council of nationally elected representatives should manage whatever share of these companies the government owns. It's time the citizens started getting a return on their tax dollars if they're being used for p…

Serious question: do we have historical comparisons, can we refer to instances where nationalizing in the wake of a bailout led to positive results? The one comparable I can think of in the US is Amtrak, which is functional although not exactly wildly successful.

This is a bad faith question.

The real question is, “Why were the airlines so poorly equipped to handle a cataclysmic event when the last one was only 19 years ago?”

The answer is short term profitability.

And the follow up question is, “Why would ANYONE bail any for-profit company out to the benefit of the shareholders only, ever?”

Re: America's bailed-out airlines are not 'playing fair' with customers

#17

Post by HumblyTossed »

T-hawk wrote: post #12
orthecreedence wrote: post #4

If we give bail outs, we should get stock/control. End of story. All bailed out companies should be nationalized to some extent, depending on the value of their stock and how much the government buys. A board/council of nationally elected representatives should manage whatever share of these companies the government owns. It's time the citizens started getting a return on their tax dollars if they're being used for p…

Serious question: do we have historical comparisons, can we refer to instances where nationalizing in the wake of a bailout led to positive results? The one comparable I can think of in the US is Amtrak, which is functional although not exactly wildly successful.

If we let the airlines go under, I wonder how much funding so called bullet trains and Hyperloop, etc would get in the USofA. We depend on Airlines way too much.

Edit: Maybe not "go under", but at least try and bail themselves out. We need to fund alternatives.

Re: America's bailed-out airlines are not 'playing fair' with customers

#18

Post by lonelappde »

dominotw wrote: post #11
orthecreedence wrote: post #4

If we give bail outs, we should get stock/control. End of story. All bailed out companies should be nationalized to some extent, depending on the value of their stock and how much the government buys. A board/council of nationally elected representatives should manage whatever share of these companies the government owns. It's time the citizens started getting a return on their tax dollars if they're being used for p…

>All bailed out companies should be nationalized to some extent Is there an example of nationalized company that operates in free market and still manages to turn a profit for the investors(citizens). I wouldn't make an investment in usps or amtrak as a citizen with profit motive as a tax payer.

Nationalised companies like USPS and local utilities turn a profit for the customers and externalities to promote the general welfare, as it should be.

Re: America's bailed-out airlines are not 'playing fair' with customers

#19

Post by pmorici »

T-hawk wrote: post #12
orthecreedence wrote: post #4

If we give bail outs, we should get stock/control. End of story. All bailed out companies should be nationalized to some extent, depending on the value of their stock and how much the government buys. A board/council of nationally elected representatives should manage whatever share of these companies the government owns. It's time the citizens started getting a return on their tax dollars if they're being used for p…

Serious question: do we have historical comparisons, can we refer to instances where nationalizing in the wake of a bailout led to positive results? The one comparable I can think of in the US is Amtrak, which is functional although not exactly wildly successful.

Didn’t the US Government get stock in GM when they bailed it out in 2008? They ended up breaking even as the claim goes

Re: America's bailed-out airlines are not 'playing fair' with customers

#20

Post by orthecreedence »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #9
orthecreedence wrote: post #4

If we give bail outs, we should get stock/control. End of story. All bailed out companies should be nationalized to some extent, depending on the value of their stock and how much the government buys. A board/council of nationally elected representatives should manage whatever share of these companies the government owns. It's time the citizens started getting a return on their tax dollars if they're being used for p…

> A board/council of nationally elected representatives should manage whatever share of these companies the government owns This has succeeded practically zero times in the history of nationalisation. Transitioning a culture from private ownership to public is highly value destroying. And putting electeds in charge of companies goes about as one would expect in terms of venality and competence. The better strategy is…

> Transitioning a culture from private ownership to public is highly value destroying

You know what else is value-destroying? Giving money to failed companies for free. Everyone's a capitalist until something bad happens, then they go running to Free Money Center to pick up their welfare check.

> And putting electeds in charge of companies goes about as one would expect in terms of venality and competence.

Yes, failing companies are a paragon of competence.

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