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The internet should be a public utility

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61–70 of 265 posts

Re: The internet should be a public utility

#61

Walk me through this argument - my local utilities are a nightmare! Their pricing is atrocious and regressive (huge flat fixed fees to connect, tiny marginal costs), they constantly have to borrow money from the city to make ends meet. Combined, we pay $350 a month for gas, water & drainage, electricity (over 50% of the bills are fixed costs, unaffected by our consumption). Customer service is awful. In comparison, o…

If the municipality lays the fiber and provides the internet service, the result may be poor. But that doesn't have to be the arrangement. The municipality can lay the fiber and allow multiple companies to offer internet service over that infrastructure.

In Chelan County, WA they've blended the best of public and private. The government took on the large upfront costs and laid municipal fiber down all over the place. Literally cabins in the woods are connected up to fiber optics. Then they somehow facilitated the capability for multiple providers to sell internet connectivity over that fiber. I'm not exactly sure how they did that -- maybe they laid multiple fiber strands, maybe they leased a variety of wavelengths, etc -- but the end result is that residents of Chelan County with fiber have multiple ISPs to choose from, the prices are very competitive and the service is good.

In Chelan County, LocalTel offers 1000Mbps down and 100Mbps up for $74.95 per month. No performance issues whatsoever with all the COVID-19 related traffic spikes and when you call LocalTel with a tech problem, a real human answers the phone -- it's wonderful.

Re: The internet should be a public utility

#62

If it's public infrastructure, the government has no incentive to innovate and it'll be a good way to ruin it. Electric, gas, and water utilities are natural monopolies and priced per usage. You'd end up paying more for slower internet.

Please show me where private run electric or gas utilities have unlimited usage for a flat fee.

There’s none for obvious reasons. Give me an example of a government making the internet a public utility and making it better and less censored than a privately run company.

Re: The internet should be a public utility

#63

In order for anything useful to happen in our society, we have to vote. It is now abundantly clear which party values what, and for whom. If we would rather vote based on 'abortion preventing our souls from partying with Jesus in heaven' instead of 'municipal broadband for all residents as a public utility', then we're going to continue to complain about this for another 50 years and beyond. The problem is that sayin…

> It is now abundantly clear which party values what

The problem is you only (effectively) have two of those. Many other democracies use proportional elections instead of first past the post, which generally results in a more diverse party landscape which in turn makes it easier to pick a party that aligns more closely with multiple of your personal preferences instead of one.

The party abstraction is incredibly lossy for people who don't slot all their preferences into the same bucket along a single axis. So having only two of those makes things even worse.

It also prevents the political landscape from shifting much since there are fewer players at the margins.

Re: The internet should be a public utility

#64
post #4

I talked with the mayor of Los Altos Hills, CA yesterday where I advocated for a municipal fiber ISP. It seems crazy to me that in Silicon Valley, and specifically in one of its richest towns, that broadband is not available to every residence. She makes a good point: the residents don't care. Her argument is that ~20 mbps DSL is good enough for the elderly population. And further - that for those who find that inade…

The city of Zurich has what to my understanding is public fiber which is available to most buildings. (I assume there are some exceptions). It is managed by the electricity company run by the city. https://zuerinet.ch

Setting up routers, billing etc. has been delegated to any third party ISP willing to do the job. I think they can charge what they want, as there are some very small differences in price. I pay ~44CHF/month for 100mb/s. While not dirt cheap, It's ok considering the price of other stuff here. Service so far has been very reliable.

Re: The internet should be a public utility

#65

I’m generally a libertarian, anti-bureaucracy type, but this is an issue I align with. Having the government provide the bulk of last mile dumb fiber seems to be the best way to move forward internet speeds. Opponents always point towards the remarkable improvements in wireless internet speed, but those of us who understand the technology know it’s not a replacement for fiber. Why compare simple, vacuum packed downlo…

>Of course people don’t utilize their upload speed: it’s miserably slow!

The average internet user's bandwidth usage is always going to be asymmetrical, since the average internet user is downloading a lot more than they produce. One or two streaming movies on something like Netflix (15% of worldwide downstream usage by itself) will completely blow away a few video calls.

Try to enumerate the use cases for high upload rates, and you find that most of them simply won't apply to most users.

Re: The internet should be a public utility

#66
Here's a question I have about these types of frustrating monopolies, and I'd love a point towards a book or something that can explain.

Let's say I have a bunch of money (or funding) for a big new internet provider that could easily outperform the existing provider. What makes it so hard to do it?

I hear complaints (and complain myself) about seemingly unfair pricing and slow speeds. The tech is there to make > 100mb internet, why isn't it more widespread? Surely consumers are willing to pay for a competitor that can provide it.

Re: The internet should be a public utility

#67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> corporate takeover attempt Sadly, I think the takeover has happened already, and there's not enough incentive for public figures, companies, and politicians to push for deprivatization. I agree with the article that the Internet should be a public utility, like water or electricity.

I know what you’re saying and I hear you but I think the “it’s already over we should just give up” attitude that comes up whenever these types of discussions arise is what causes them to win. The first step to reversing their influence is not viewing it as acceptable.

> “it’s already over we should just give up” attitude

I agree, thank you for pointing that out. I'm trying to fight this defeatist and cynical tendency in myself.

> The first step to reversing their influence is not viewing it as acceptable.

Right - as a form of local activism, I'll remember to voice my opinion on important matters, where the status quo is unacceptable.

Re: The internet should be a public utility

#68
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Competition does help when it happens. The problem is Comcast and AT&T charge higher prices wherever there is no competition and they actively do whatever they can to prevent competition, they absolutely do not just wait around for other ISPs to compete. A few years ago Comcast’s active anti-competitive bullying of local ISPs in my city pushed me off the ISP I preferred. And there are too many areas in the U.S. where…

I think this is how utilities evolved in many places- local monopolies arose, so local governments either built their own system, took over service delivery or created laws on top of the service delivery.

I don't understand this part. As far as I can tell, utility monopolies can only form with government assistance (i.e. lobbying).

Re: The internet should be a public utility

#69
The danger with government nationalizing telecommunications networks is that once it is done, innovation and quality go way down. We had nationalized telecommunications for over 70 years and customers could only have one brand of phone, and we're limited in the number of phones available in their houses. In addition, long distance calling was cost-prohibitive. The monopoly only started cracking when MCI introduced microwave based long distance calling.

Fortunately non-governmental is on the way for you. 4G/5G are decent options, many areas (rural and in major cities) have microwave based broadband, and it looks like Starlink will become a reality soon. Putting fiber lines in the ground is extremely expensive (especially in California) and frankly is not really needed by most of the population.

Are you just using a cell phone? In your situation or may make sense to buy a repeater or other dedicated hardware solutions.

Re: The internet should be a public utility

#70
post #69

The danger with government nationalizing telecommunications networks is that once it is done, innovation and quality go way down. We had nationalized telecommunications for over 70 years and customers could only have one brand of phone, and we're limited in the number of phones available in their houses. In addition, long distance calling was cost-prohibitive. The monopoly only started cracking when MCI introduced mi…

> We had nationalized telecommunications for over 70 years

No.

Until 1982 AT&T in the United States was a legal monopoly, not a nationalized telecom.

The book, The Idea Factory about Bell Labs has most of the history including why the the defense work Bell Labs did during WWII and beyond helped them justify a nationwide monopoly on telecom.

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