Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Interview with German Ventilator Manufacturer

spiegel.de

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

51–60 of 182 posts

Re: Interview with German Ventilator Manufacturer

#51

Post by thu2111 »

peteretep wrote: post #45
sabertoothed wrote: post #41

Some key statements: "Dräger: In Europe, the number of intensive-care beds per capita is very unequally distributed. In Italy, it is three times lower than here. In England, five times lower. The challenge in England will be greater than in Spain. And the situation in the U.S. is very alarming. The reporting system there is also underdeveloped."

I’ve wondered about this for a little while. Why does Germany have five times as many ICU beds than England? Until now, I’ve never heard a suggestion that England had fewer ICU beds than it needed generally, and assuming England and Germany use beds at the same general capacity, why on earth is Germany running five times more beds that it generally needs? (please don’t answer “for a case like this” unless you have so…

There's some definitional problems as well.

Consider that in the last few weeks the NHS doubled its ICU capacity. The term "ICU bed" conjures up images of something surrounded by über-complex equipment but it can mean other things, which is why it seems able to flex so fast.

As far as I can tell, so far in this pandemic, there haven't been any stats that can be totally trusted or compared between nations - on anything at all.

Re: Interview with German Ventilator Manufacturer

#52

Post by tyingq »

peteretep wrote: post #45
sabertoothed wrote: post #41

Some key statements: "Dräger: In Europe, the number of intensive-care beds per capita is very unequally distributed. In Italy, it is three times lower than here. In England, five times lower. The challenge in England will be greater than in Spain. And the situation in the U.S. is very alarming. The reporting system there is also underdeveloped."

I’ve wondered about this for a little while. Why does Germany have five times as many ICU beds than England? Until now, I’ve never heard a suggestion that England had fewer ICU beds than it needed generally, and assuming England and Germany use beds at the same general capacity, why on earth is Germany running five times more beds that it generally needs? (please don’t answer “for a case like this” unless you have so…

That doesn't surprise me culturally. I lived in Germany for a couple of years, and the deference to "rules that matter" was completely different than my US experience. Even for trivial stuff like waiting in line/queues. The Germans were much more literal in following the rules, versus my US and UK peers.

Re: Interview with German Ventilator Manufacturer

#53

Post by pyb »

de_Selby wrote: post #13
pyb wrote: post #6

"I spoke with Daimler over the weekend. They would also like to help. But it’s unfortunately not so simple..." It would be interesting to hear more precisely why. We've heard more than a few well-respected industrialists essentially saying "Scaling up ventilator production ? How hard could it be?" Edit. Of course I am not suggesting that car assembly lines are suitable to build ventilator parts. That's clearly not wh…

He gives an analogy in the next sentence that explains exactly why "We can't build cars either". Production lines are not general purpose. There are also extremely high standards to be met for medical devices.

Of course, but that's surely not what Daimler's CEO was suggesting. What he might have been offering may be assembly workers, or factory space, or privileged contacts with Daimler's supplier base, or something else. My point was that it would be interesting for the general public to understand the actual issues. Right now we're all left guessing a bit.

Re: Interview with German Ventilator Manufacturer

#54

Post by thu2111 »

yalogin wrote: post #35

I hear GM and now Daimler are all offering to help. How easy are these to manufacture? Also setting up the manufacturing plant takes time doesn’t it? All these companies make it seem like it’s trivial to create the infrastructure needed to manufacture them in bulk. Or does auto manufacturers somehow have the equipment to do this already? Is that the case?

Cars are many orders of magnitude more complex than ventilators so it's not unimaginable. A ventilator is basically a motor/small turbine connected to a few sensors and air filters, all linked together with some fairly sophisticated software. The software can obviously be 'manufactured' at infinite speed. That leaves an assembly of pipes, valves and flow sensors - but only a few. Especially if you customise the machine to only what COVID-19 patients need and don't go general purpose, it can be done.

Re: Interview with German Ventilator Manufacturer

#55

Post by pyb »

justnotworthit wrote: post #9
pyb wrote: post #6

"I spoke with Daimler over the weekend. They would also like to help. But it’s unfortunately not so simple..." It would be interesting to hear more precisely why. We've heard more than a few well-respected industrialists essentially saying "Scaling up ventilator production ? How hard could it be?" Edit. Of course I am not suggesting that car assembly lines are suitable to build ventilator parts. That's clearly not wh…

Next line is "We can’t build cars either." It would be interesting to hear industrialists explain how car assembly lines make them able to produce any particular hi-tech equipment. Or are you saying "why not just equip the buildings next door and quadruple everything"?

The second option, of course.

The industrialists I mention are not just in automotive, but oil and gas, etc

Re: Interview with German Ventilator Manufacturer

#56

Post by dillonmckay »

adrianN wrote: post #27
dillonmckay wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My concern is the rush to acquire PPE, rules be damned, a decent amount of counterfeit masks will make it into circulation, and will provide a false sense of security.

We're not talking about FFP2/3 masks here, but simple masks that mostly prevent droplets produced by the wearer from spreading as far and slightly reduce the probability of inhaling the larger ones other people produce. Basically anything that covers mouth and nose.

We have totally given up on obtaining N95 grade masks?

The masks you are talking about, we already have citizens sewing them in a large-scale volunteer effort.

Re: Interview with German Ventilator Manufacturer

#57

Post by eerltjhiou »

peteretep wrote: post #45
sabertoothed wrote: post #41

Some key statements: "Dräger: In Europe, the number of intensive-care beds per capita is very unequally distributed. In Italy, it is three times lower than here. In England, five times lower. The challenge in England will be greater than in Spain. And the situation in the U.S. is very alarming. The reporting system there is also underdeveloped."

I’ve wondered about this for a little while. Why does Germany have five times as many ICU beds than England? Until now, I’ve never heard a suggestion that England had fewer ICU beds than it needed generally, and assuming England and Germany use beds at the same general capacity, why on earth is Germany running five times more beds that it generally needs? (please don’t answer “for a case like this” unless you have so…

Basically the principles of JustInTime inventory management system applied to ICU. England optimized bed usage to be around 95%, to reduce the cost associated with empty beds.

Re: Interview with German Ventilator Manufacturer

#58

Post by nicoburns »

peteretep wrote: post #45
sabertoothed wrote: post #41

Some key statements: "Dräger: In Europe, the number of intensive-care beds per capita is very unequally distributed. In Italy, it is three times lower than here. In England, five times lower. The challenge in England will be greater than in Spain. And the situation in the U.S. is very alarming. The reporting system there is also underdeveloped."

I’ve wondered about this for a little while. Why does Germany have five times as many ICU beds than England? Until now, I’ve never heard a suggestion that England had fewer ICU beds than it needed generally, and assuming England and Germany use beds at the same general capacity, why on earth is Germany running five times more beds that it generally needs? (please don’t answer “for a case like this” unless you have so…

Note that the UK spends a lot less (per capita) on healthcare than Germany: (£2,989 vs £4,432 in 2017), and that funding for healthcare has generally be considered to be insufficient over at least the last 10 years in the UK, leading to cuts in service. This may account for at least some of the difference.

Source: https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthan...

Re: Interview with German Ventilator Manufacturer

#59

Post by MrBuddyCasino »

k__ wrote: post #16
jsilence wrote: post #7

Home made masks are not as good as professional masks, but they have some efficiency (> 70%). https://www.researchgate.net/publication/258525804_Testing_t...

I read somewhere that it could be dangerous to wear one when you're infected, because then the virii have a much bigger chance to be inhaled again and get deeper into the lung. Is this true?

You should wash them, soap seems to be very effective against Coronavirus.

Re: Interview with German Ventilator Manufacturer

#60

Post by the8472 »

scandox wrote: post #12
pyb wrote: post #6

"I spoke with Daimler over the weekend. They would also like to help. But it’s unfortunately not so simple..." It would be interesting to hear more precisely why. We've heard more than a few well-respected industrialists essentially saying "Scaling up ventilator production ? How hard could it be?" Edit. Of course I am not suggesting that car assembly lines are suitable to build ventilator parts. That's clearly not wh…

I am fascinated by the notion of factories just changing what they make. In my imagination a factory is a highly specialized machine for making one thing alone...

At least car manufacturers consist of more than one production line. They make smaller series and prototypes too. And they have lines (and suppliers) that supply parts to other lines.

Remember they also have to build the ECUs, dashboard and AC plumbing. If you squint that might be about what you need for a ventilator.

Post reply on HN