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Dwarf Fortress: An actual look at graphical improvements

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Re: Dwarf Fortress: An actual look at graphical improvements

#121

Post by LilBytes »

bllguo wrote: post #35
golergka wrote: post #9

I spent significant time in DF in the early part of 2010s, but in the end found that it's just too much to micromanage - the game (at the time, at least) didn't offer much help with it, and after awhile, all the clutter really got in the way. If you like this kind of game, but would want something not as demanding, try Rimworld. Out of all dwarffortresslikes (I don't think that calling them Dward Fortress clones is f…

the key thing about rimworld for me is the multiplayer mod. there are many things i am willing to sacrifice for that experience.

Unsure if RimWorld is getting multiplayer or if they're planning on developing a new multi-player game, but they're advertising for a role that inc's multi-player experience at the moment.

https://www.reddit.com/r/RimWorld/comments/fpe522/tynan_is_l...

Re: Dwarf Fortress: An actual look at graphical improvements

#122

Post by grawprog »

jtolmar wrote: post #10

I never thought the ASCII graphics were a big problem in Dwarf Fortress; once you get used to it using a bunch of symbols as decoration, almost all the weird stuff ends up being things you placed yourself. On the other hand, the complete lack of UX consistency - whether a given submenu will use primary/secondary cursor keys, nested menus, or a pile of hotkeys - is a lot harder to deal with.

My only problem with the default ASCII is the tile size. The 8x16 is just not that great for a game with as much information on the screen as dwarf fortress. My favourite are 16x16 mostly ASCII symbols. I think it's the guybrush tiles from the dwarf fortress wiki.

I've never liked any of the full graphical tilesets. I find it a lot harder to keep track of everything on the screen, even when I figure out what the different tiles are supposed to be. The black background with clear discernible symbols of the ASCII and mostly ASCII tiles make it a lot easier to get information from a screen at a quick glance while you're scrolling around the map.

That being said, I do like firing up stonesense and taking a look at the fortress from that perspective just because it's awesome and I still hope for the day some enterprising miracle worker creates a real time 3d renderer for dwarf fortress.

Re: Dwarf Fortress: An actual look at graphical improvements

#123

Post by grawprog »

kibwen wrote: post #28
zionic wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I completely disagree. The ASCII "graphics" (if you can really call them that) are a huge reason why I've never even considered playing it. I've read all about the mechanics, and they're interesting. I just don't understand why anyone would spend so much time developing so many intricate features when the presentation is so poor.

I don't fault you, but let's be charitable to Tarn here: the austere style is deliberately because he didn't want to spend any more time than necessary on the graphics, when what interested him most is the systems and the simulations (remember that DF has been a solo passion project for well over a decade now). His experience making the precursor to Dwarf Fortress (which is technically the second game in the series)…

As far as I know, the 3d graphics in the first slaves to armok was a big reason why Tarn switched to focussing on dwarf fortress as it was. I vaguely recall reading sometime that it was too much work for just the two of them and they weren't really making great progress and preferred to focus on working on the simulation and game systems without needing to worry about a graphics engine. Even the switch to sdl was done with help from the community if I remember right.

Re: Dwarf Fortress: An actual look at graphical improvements

#124

Post by edem »

I think the problem is not the ASCII. It is the UX. I've been playing DF for years and what made the game for me from horrifying (not the complexity, but the UX!) to bearable is DFHack! It fixes a lot of the UX issues (not all of them of course) and obviates the need to use 3rd party tools like Dwarf Therapist. I also enabled TWBT and added a nice color theme. Take a look [here](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/469471886598995968/55...). I think the graphical tileset is kinda...empty and it doesn't hold that much information as the ASCII.

Re: Dwarf Fortress: An actual look at graphical improvements

#125

Post by pengaru »

Having curiously perused the source for one of Tarn's earlier games, Liberal Crime Squad [0], and running away in horror, I'm really curious what the source for DF looks like... especially considering for how long they've plugged away at it.

Looking at LCS source was a lesson in how unimportant good programming can be when it comes to making a fun game. But I still can't bring myself to shed all my hygienic programming practices whenever I sit down to hack on a toy. It's really kind of frustrating, since it does add significant time to the development process from waffling about good names and clean abstractions.

[0] https://sourceforge.net/projects/lcsgame/

Re: Dwarf Fortress: An actual look at graphical improvements

#126

Post by xtracto »

jshaqaw wrote: post #19

One day when I am retired and my kids are grown up I will have the proper bandwidth for DF and play it. Until them I am an admiring fanboy from afar.

That's my thought but for Eve Online. I've read and heard about it, and the idea of it fascinates me. However I just dont have the time required to dedicate to it.

Re: Dwarf Fortress: An actual look at graphical improvements

#127

Post by serf »

Accujack wrote: post #119
seanhunter wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"this is a detailed simulation, so things move a lot faster if you're not spending CPU on graphics" Consider Battlefield or COD Warzone, which simulate the effects of actions by multiple players (including projectile travel) in real time and still manage upwards of 100FPS of near photorealistic graphics. Or factorio, where people build insane megafactories with millions of machines in them and yet performance is grea…

>Consider Battlefield or COD Warzone, which simulate the effects of actions by multiple players (including projectile travel) in real time and still manage upwards of 100FPS of near photorealistic graphics. >Or factorio, where people build insane megafactories with millions of machines in them and yet performance is great and the graphics will still show you the shadows of clouds passing overhead. Compared to DF, bot…

>Certain things that have shown up in third party utilities like Dwarf Therapist are nearly impossible to do without, making the base game more or less unplayable after a release until the third party stuff catches up.

I called this Kerbal or Skyrim Syndrome amongs friends.

Games that are no longer playable vanilla after you've had the luxuries of some of the simple convenience addons.

Re: Dwarf Fortress: An actual look at graphical improvements

#128

Post by Tomis02 »

zionic wrote: post #21
jtolmar wrote: post #10

I never thought the ASCII graphics were a big problem in Dwarf Fortress; once you get used to it using a bunch of symbols as decoration, almost all the weird stuff ends up being things you placed yourself. On the other hand, the complete lack of UX consistency - whether a given submenu will use primary/secondary cursor keys, nested menus, or a pile of hotkeys - is a lot harder to deal with.

I completely disagree. The ASCII "graphics" (if you can really call them that) are a huge reason why I've never even considered playing it. I've read all about the mechanics, and they're interesting. I just don't understand why anyone would spend so much time developing so many intricate features when the presentation is so poor.

Some people play games for the gameplay, and the ASCII graphics allow them to project their imagination and obtain any fantasy world they want. The rest of the people play Call of Duty and FIFA, and would be hard-pressed to ever leave their comfort zone.

Re: Dwarf Fortress: An actual look at graphical improvements

#129

Post by vintermann »

Tomis02 wrote: post #128
zionic wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I completely disagree. The ASCII "graphics" (if you can really call them that) are a huge reason why I've never even considered playing it. I've read all about the mechanics, and they're interesting. I just don't understand why anyone would spend so much time developing so many intricate features when the presentation is so poor.

Some people play games for the gameplay, and the ASCII graphics allow them to project their imagination and obtain any fantasy world they want. The rest of the people play Call of Duty and FIFA, and would be hard-pressed to ever leave their comfort zone.

Yeah, I don't think you'd see series like Kruggsmash's lovingly hand-illustrated series if the graphics were better.

Re: Dwarf Fortress: An actual look at graphical improvements

#130

Post by nineteen999 »

empath75 wrote: post #86
nineteen999 wrote: post #84

I wonder how this will affect the performance; last time I played DF it was pretty much single-threaded and the performance would tank noticeably once your colony grew to around 100+ dwarves. Granted, it's been about 10 years since I played it.

I don't think the graphics will add significantly to the work the simulation is doing.

No, but they are presumably going to add a little extra time per frame over the very basic display it uses now. It's certainly not going to make it any faster.
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