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Dwarf Fortress: An actual look at graphical improvements

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Re: Dwarf Fortress: An actual look at graphical improvements

#71

Post by II2II »

zionic wrote: post #21
jtolmar wrote: post #10

I never thought the ASCII graphics were a big problem in Dwarf Fortress; once you get used to it using a bunch of symbols as decoration, almost all the weird stuff ends up being things you placed yourself. On the other hand, the complete lack of UX consistency - whether a given submenu will use primary/secondary cursor keys, nested menus, or a pile of hotkeys - is a lot harder to deal with.

I completely disagree. The ASCII "graphics" (if you can really call them that) are a huge reason why I've never even considered playing it. I've read all about the mechanics, and they're interesting. I just don't understand why anyone would spend so much time developing so many intricate features when the presentation is so poor.

I also found the presentation distracting and the mechanics interesting, and I am quite accustomed to games that are text only. Simultaneously decoding glyphs and figuring out mechanics felt like more effort than it was worth.

While I cannot speak for the developer, I can understand why they would go that route. Unless you have an interest in computer graphics, implementing them can be dreadfully dull. Unless you have an eye for design, creating the various graphical elements can lead to some interesting results.

Re: Dwarf Fortress: An actual look at graphical improvements

#72

Post by gnulinux »

rstupek wrote: post #47

The biggest single thing DF can do after graphical improvements is fixing the performance, perhaps make it not single threaded. I've been able to get past the graphics, and work through using the keyboard menus, but having the fortress come to a screeching crawl when there's a ton of things going on is when I stopped playing.

It seems like factorio is very well optimized and is single threaded (as per devs). Even when you make a ginormous factory, everything works mildly fine on a good laptop. I think dwarffortress mechanics is a bit more complex than factorio's in terms of computation, so maybe some parallelism can be utilized there. But it seems like as long as you optimize well, single thread goes a long way.

Re: Dwarf Fortress: An actual look at graphical improvements

#73

Post by hutzlibu »

Natsu wrote: post #48
zionic wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I completely disagree. The ASCII "graphics" (if you can really call them that) are a huge reason why I've never even considered playing it. I've read all about the mechanics, and they're interesting. I just don't understand why anyone would spend so much time developing so many intricate features when the presentation is so poor.

The thing is, it's really not. Granted, I always used the Lazy Newbie Pack which gave you basic tiles, but once you get used to ASCII, things tend to be a lot easier. Also, this is a detailed simulation, so things move a lot faster if you're not spending CPU on graphics. Remember, each creature has a bunch of parts with individual health, each tile can get stained by various materials (that can spread disease) and ev…

"so things move a lot faster if you're not spending CPU on graphics."

Thats why most have a GPU and that is why there are graphic engines, who do the rendering only of what is needed and produced by the simulation. So no, unless DF uses the gpu for simulating which I doubt, better graphics will not really affect simulation speed, if done right.

But yes, that is much harder.

Re: Dwarf Fortress: An actual look at graphical improvements

#74

Post by wmil »

jtolmar wrote: post #10

I never thought the ASCII graphics were a big problem in Dwarf Fortress; once you get used to it using a bunch of symbols as decoration, almost all the weird stuff ends up being things you placed yourself. On the other hand, the complete lack of UX consistency - whether a given submenu will use primary/secondary cursor keys, nested menus, or a pile of hotkeys - is a lot harder to deal with.

Well there's that moment of panic where you aren't sure if it's a group of goblins or goats.

Re: Dwarf Fortress: An actual look at graphical improvements

#75

Post by rstupek »

tarboreus wrote: post #69
gnulinux wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I would normally disable invasion. When I enabled invasion, I'd just lock my dwarfs in my fortress and not leave the fortress for a season and eventually goblins abandon the invasion. I just never figured out how to prepare an army and attack, so figured, I'd much rather focus on things like farming, smelting, jewelry etc.

You can just put down stone traps and it will kill 85% of invasions. The rest you can create a drawbridge or something and pull it up if you see an enemy you can't deal with. Closing yourself off also means you can't trade, generally, so it's good to leave your fortress semi-open.

The problem with traps that kill, when I've used them, is the cleanup aftermath where your dwarves will go crazy from having to cleanup the remains and reset the traps!

Re: Dwarf Fortress: An actual look at graphical improvements

#76

Post by jredwards »

golergka wrote: post #9

I spent significant time in DF in the early part of 2010s, but in the end found that it's just too much to micromanage - the game (at the time, at least) didn't offer much help with it, and after awhile, all the clutter really got in the way. If you like this kind of game, but would want something not as demanding, try Rimworld. Out of all dwarffortresslikes (I don't think that calling them Dward Fortress clones is f…

I've spent more time with Rimworld than any other game I've ever played. Between the vibrant mod community and the recent re-engagement of the original developers, it continues to grow and change, offering new experiences alongside the classic ones. Every colony I build is different. I will forever treasure this game.

Re: Dwarf Fortress: An actual look at graphical improvements

#77

Post by Dylan16807 »

Natsu wrote: post #48
zionic wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I completely disagree. The ASCII "graphics" (if you can really call them that) are a huge reason why I've never even considered playing it. I've read all about the mechanics, and they're interesting. I just don't understand why anyone would spend so much time developing so many intricate features when the presentation is so poor.

The thing is, it's really not. Granted, I always used the Lazy Newbie Pack which gave you basic tiles, but once you get used to ASCII, things tend to be a lot easier. Also, this is a detailed simulation, so things move a lot faster if you're not spending CPU on graphics. Remember, each creature has a bunch of parts with individual health, each tile can get stained by various materials (that can spread disease) and ev…

> Also, this is a detailed simulation, so things move a lot faster if you're not spending CPU on graphics.

Nonsense. Rendering a grid of 2D tiles is exceptionally fast, so much so that converting font data into tiles is how you make text grids go faster!

And even if you do have a slow method, you can just run it on a different thread.

Re: Dwarf Fortress: An actual look at graphical improvements

#78

Post by cjhveal »

fishmaster wrote: post #65
cjhveal wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I personally agree. A lot of those disagreeing with you find the ASCII graphics to be a barrier to initial entry, which is true, but it is a barrier that you can overcome quickly and feel quite comfortable with. On the other hand, having spent many hours with the game, the UX issues you mention are what block me from building fluid muscle memory and being able to really get into the game.

Nope, I tried it several times and I just can't stand ASCII graphics. I'd rather play Dota or anything else instead.

Fair enough-- for me a lot of the joy of the game is in using it as a collaborative story teller and filling in the gaps it gives me. Having underspecified graphics gives me more freedom with my mind's eye, but I can understand that not everyone approaches it the same way and wouldn't get the same out of it even with a lot of effort.

Re: Dwarf Fortress: An actual look at graphical improvements

#79

Post by hombre_fatal »

rstupek wrote: post #47

The biggest single thing DF can do after graphical improvements is fixing the performance, perhaps make it not single threaded. I've been able to get past the graphics, and work through using the keyboard menus, but having the fortress come to a screeching crawl when there's a ton of things going on is when I stopped playing.

Being able to run mid-/end-game in grand strategy games (Crusader Kings 2, EU4, Stellaris, Civilization) at a fast speed single-handedly got me to finally build a desktop PC.

I bought the best single-threaded CPU perf I could find at the time (https://www.cpubenchmark.net/singleThread.html) and put it in the smallest case that could support it.

End-game Crusader Kings 2 takes two seconds to simulate each day on my 2017 Macbook Pro. My desktop PC can simulate half a year in that time. I can also play on the largest Stellaris galaxies.

Sooo much more enjoyable when you can run a simulation as fast as you want. Now I can actually finish games instead of bailing at mid-game when things start to slow down.

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