A review of Thomas Piketty’s “Capital and Ideology” • Hacker News Board

Re: A review of Thomas Piketty’s “Capital and Ideology”

#21

Post by tehjoker » Thu, Mar 26, 2020, 7:13 PM UTC

codingslave wrote: post #19

geodel wrote: post #7

" “the Democratic Party in the United States transitioned over half a century from the workers’ party to the party of the highly educated.” Elites’ distance from working-class interest, he contends, led the Democratic party and its ideological counterparts abroad to accede to a policy program betraying the values of social democracy: regressive taxation, elite domination of higher education systems, and forms of glob…

I've always viewed it as paradoxical that the left is both: 1.) For the welfare of the worker, social programs, universal healthcare, "standard of living" 2.) Open borders immigration, free trade, outsourcing, and other ultra capitalist policies.

Open borders is anti-capitalist because it allows labor to move with the same liberty as capital, so it can help reduce the ability of capitalists to find deals. Without other policies it is atomizing and ineffective, but there is a good moral argument for it in that invisible lines shouldn't hamper freedom of movement for people. Nations are fake.

The socialist left is against free trade and outsourcing. Period. We are internationalist and support trade with countries that will raise their labor conditions to parity. We also support anti-capitalist struggles abroad.

Re: A review of Thomas Piketty’s “Capital and Ideology”

#22

Post by seamyb88 » Thu, Mar 26, 2020, 7:14 PM UTC

codingslave wrote: post #19

geodel wrote: post #7

" “the Democratic Party in the United States transitioned over half a century from the workers’ party to the party of the highly educated.” Elites’ distance from working-class interest, he contends, led the Democratic party and its ideological counterparts abroad to accede to a policy program betraying the values of social democracy: regressive taxation, elite domination of higher education systems, and forms of glob…

I've always viewed it as paradoxical that the left is both: 1.) For the welfare of the worker, social programs, universal healthcare, "standard of living" 2.) Open borders immigration, free trade, outsourcing, and other ultra capitalist policies.

[dead]

Re: A review of Thomas Piketty’s “Capital and Ideology”

#23

Post by specialist » Thu, Mar 26, 2020, 7:16 PM UTC

clairity wrote: post #4

> "[hyper-capitalism] is defined by unlimited international capital mobility to evade regulation and taxation at the national level, alongside definite limits on the ability of labor to act in the same autonomous way." such inequities imbalance the power between labor and capital, which then destabilizes the social structures resting on these economic (and political) foundations. power is a highly dynamic, and as a r…

I'd like all belligerants to pick a target Gini Coefficient number. Then we manage to that number. Whoever is in power will push the balance towards their number.

I'm just so exhausted by all the rhetoric, kabuki, ideology, dogma, propaganda. Arguing about the placement of the deck chairs as the Titanic sinks.

Re: A review of Thomas Piketty’s “Capital and Ideology”

#24

Post by karatestomp » Thu, Mar 26, 2020, 7:18 PM UTC

save_ferris wrote: post #12

geodel wrote: post #7

" “the Democratic Party in the United States transitioned over half a century from the workers’ party to the party of the highly educated.” Elites’ distance from working-class interest, he contends, led the Democratic party and its ideological counterparts abroad to accede to a policy program betraying the values of social democracy: regressive taxation, elite domination of higher education systems, and forms of glob…

I always assume most are just oblivious, given the fact that the Democratic Party still tries to identify as a worker-first party. That’s rapidly changing with the rise of the modern progressive movement, DSA and the like. Part of the problem is the two-party system, which essentially ensures that control remains between the Dems and GOP. This is why so many presidential elections wind up being contests of the least-…

It’s also why some positions that should be fairly common are effectively impossible to express. For single payer healthcare, against the death penalty, and anti-abortion? You have no good candidates. Pro union, but also for stronger anti-illegal-immigration measures? Ditto. And so on.

Re: A review of Thomas Piketty’s “Capital and Ideology”

#25

Post by tomesco » Thu, Mar 26, 2020, 7:19 PM UTC

simonh wrote: post #6

dorchadas wrote: post #3

I'm currently working my way through Capital in the Twenty-First Century . It's been really eye-opening about how bad inequality actually is. I suggest everyone read it, and I'm excited to read his new one soon after.

It's a fascinating book and deservedly highly influential, but please also read some of the rebuttals and counter-points for a good understanding of the issues.

Could you please share any you recommend?

Re: A review of Thomas Piketty’s “Capital and Ideology”

#26

Post by clairity » Thu, Mar 26, 2020, 7:20 PM UTC

hkmurakami wrote: post #20

geodel wrote: post #7

" “the Democratic Party in the United States transitioned over half a century from the workers’ party to the party of the highly educated.” Elites’ distance from working-class interest, he contends, led the Democratic party and its ideological counterparts abroad to accede to a policy program betraying the values of social democracy: regressive taxation, elite domination of higher education systems, and forms of glob…

One thing to remember is that everyone thinks they're "middle class". Even the corporate VP making half a million dollars thinks she's middle class.

this is why i define the middle class as the middle 3 quintiles of wealth rather than some nebulous standard of living, the latter of which can be manipulated more easily for political ends.

it's more obvious then to see that the 20-80% middle class standard of living has unambigously become more stressed, debt-laden, fearful, and immobile over the last 50 years, while the 1% has become much freer in all dimensions.

we need to bring that back into balance (which is not perfectly equal distributions by the way).

Re: A review of Thomas Piketty’s “Capital and Ideology”

#27

Post by lbj » Thu, Mar 26, 2020, 7:20 PM UTC

I'm surprised he's still writing after that disaster Capital in the 21th Centurary. Rarely have I read such error riddled, manipulative and clearly fantasy based economic writings.

Re: A review of Thomas Piketty’s “Capital and Ideology”

#28

Post by skrebbel » Thu, Mar 26, 2020, 7:22 PM UTC

hkmurakami wrote: post #20

geodel wrote: post #7

" “the Democratic Party in the United States transitioned over half a century from the workers’ party to the party of the highly educated.” Elites’ distance from working-class interest, he contends, led the Democratic party and its ideological counterparts abroad to accede to a policy program betraying the values of social democracy: regressive taxation, elite domination of higher education systems, and forms of glob…

One thing to remember is that everyone thinks they're "middle class". Even the corporate VP making half a million dollars thinks she's middle class.

Or the programmer making half a million dollars :-)

Re: A review of Thomas Piketty’s “Capital and Ideology”

#29

Post by save_ferris » Thu, Mar 26, 2020, 7:27 PM UTC

karatestomp wrote: post #24

save_ferris wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always assume most are just oblivious, given the fact that the Democratic Party still tries to identify as a worker-first party. That’s rapidly changing with the rise of the modern progressive movement, DSA and the like. Part of the problem is the two-party system, which essentially ensures that control remains between the Dems and GOP. This is why so many presidential elections wind up being contests of the least-…

It’s also why some positions that should be fairly common are effectively impossible to express. For single payer healthcare, against the death penalty, and anti-abortion? You have no good candidates. Pro union, but also for stronger anti-illegal-immigration measures? Ditto. And so on.

I'd argue that's more of a symptom of the rise of identity politics in particular than the two-party system. Policy and political discourse is driven so heavily by identity today that political parties find it easier to coalesce around groups of unrelated issues in order to find their voting base.

But I do agree with you in that it's an issue.

Re: A review of Thomas Piketty’s “Capital and Ideology”

#30

Post by rsync » Thu, Mar 26, 2020, 7:29 PM UTC

karatestomp wrote: post #24

save_ferris wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always assume most are just oblivious, given the fact that the Democratic Party still tries to identify as a worker-first party. That’s rapidly changing with the rise of the modern progressive movement, DSA and the like. Part of the problem is the two-party system, which essentially ensures that control remains between the Dems and GOP. This is why so many presidential elections wind up being contests of the least-…

It’s also why some positions that should be fairly common are effectively impossible to express. For single payer healthcare, against the death penalty, and anti-abortion? You have no good candidates. Pro union, but also for stronger anti-illegal-immigration measures? Ditto. And so on.

"Pro union, but also for stronger anti-illegal-immigration measures? Ditto."

As an aside, and hoping you find this interesting: Ralph Nader, who was a serious presidential candidate as late as 2000, did embrace exactly that combination ... I believe he claimed that (relatively) open borders were ipso facto anti-union.