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A detailed look at the router provided by my ISP

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Re: A detailed look at the router provided by my ISP

#71

Post by the8472 »

zamadatix wrote: post #60
fulafel wrote: post #4

Trivia: Strictly speaking a box that does NAT is not a router in the IP protocol sense, it's a kind of proxy. The router requirements RFC explicitly forbids altering most fields (incl the address field) in the IP header.

The NAT RFCs came after the routing RFC and refer to NAT as a router function not as an orthogonal function, boxes that do NAT are referred to as routers in the RFC. This is reflected in the real world where NAT is implemented as part of the routing chain not as a separate module. Remember NAT isn't a box creating 2 sockets and ferrying data between them it is just the translation of fields on top of normal routing f…

> boxes that do NAT are referred to as routers in the RFC.

Newer RFCs use different terms such as CPE (customer premises equipment) and AFTR (address family transition router)

Re: A detailed look at the router provided by my ISP

#72

Post by pdonis »

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #64
josephmosby wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not the provision of Internet that's the problem, it's the customer service requests. e.g., AT&T could provide perfect service to the home endpoint, but the customer bought some aftermarket router from their cousin, who had configured it for Verizon. Customer calls AT&T to holler. Tier 1 support doesn't know what that particular router config GUI even looks like, so it gets bumped to T2 or T3. Ultimately to find…

Well, my understanding is that once you have your own router, it's up to you to ensure its configured correctly.

Exactly. I have my own router (and cable modem, for that matter), and I don't call Comcast when one of them breaks; I fix it myself, since I own them.

Re: A detailed look at the router provided by my ISP

#73

Post by pdonis »

josephmosby wrote: post #55
pdonis wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ISPs hate it because it it makes their lives a lot harder - in cable networks, they now have to deal with a zoo of endpoints on a shared medium vs. a small set of standardized devices. In other words, ISPs hate it because it forces them to actually do their jobs and be ISPs. The Internet itself is "a zoo of endpoints on a shared medium", and ISP stands for Internet Service Provider.

It's not the provision of Internet that's the problem, it's the customer service requests. e.g., AT&T could provide perfect service to the home endpoint, but the customer bought some aftermarket router from their cousin, who had configured it for Verizon. Customer calls AT&T to holler. Tier 1 support doesn't know what that particular router config GUI even looks like, so it gets bumped to T2 or T3. Ultimately to find…

> ISPs job isn't just "provide the Internet," it's also "provide all the troubleshooting for every non-technical customer who just wants to watch Netflix but doesn't even know what a router is"

No ISP that I'm aware of will provide troubleshooting for devices they don't own. They just say "sorry, not our device, not our problem". When I installed my own cable modem and router, Comcast was quite clear about that. And I said "fine, no problem".

Re: A detailed look at the router provided by my ISP

#74

Post by ege_erdogan »

I am using the exact same router from the same ISP. I was wondering what the problem was when I wasn't able to forward port 22 to my computer for an SSH connection.

I had thought it had something to with the ISP allocating the same static IP to multiple clients and blocking some common ports to prevent collisions (ended up using port 109.. something for SSH). Turns out it was more interesting!

Re: A detailed look at the router provided by my ISP

#76

Post by gumby »

Someone1234 wrote: post #69
jason0597 wrote: post #27

It's funny to think that if you were to report all of your findings to your local newspaper (Turkish newspaper in this case), as to how Turkish ISPs have complete access to your router or how Huawei (China) has an SSH key for your router, people would go absolutely ballistic. But for us it's just another day of expected craziness and we're tired of talking about it

> how Turkish ISPs have complete access to your router You think it is going to blow people's socks off that a router provided and controlled by an ISP is accessible by that same ISP? Huh? The Huawei SSH key is a little strange, but depressingly common for network equipment, even big names like Cisco[0]. [0] https://tools.cisco.com/security/center/content/CiscoSecurit...

> The Huawei SSH key is a little strange, but depressingly common for network equipment, even big names like Cisco...

There’s an understandable reason for this: the isp’s staff aren’t necessarily any more competent than the isp’s customers (some are, but there are so many ISPs that I suspect they are now a small minority). So just at the isp wants to be able to reset your interface devices remotely, so will Huawei and Cisco support for the ISPs themselves.

I am not implying that “understandable” means “justified”

Re: A detailed look at the router provided by my ISP

#77

Post by cameronh90 »

LeonM wrote: post #30

In the Netherlands we now have a law where ISPs must allow your own choice of network equipment. This means they must give you the required information on how to connect your own device with their network. I have a fiber connection, which I connected directly to a Ubiquity router through a suitable SFP module. My ISP supplied the information on the fiber type and which VLAN ID's to setup for internet, TV and telephon…

As far as I'm aware, UK doesn't have a law like this, but I've never had a situation where an ISP cared, they just tell you that if you have problems they might not be able to help. I think you get interop issues with TV and landline with those ISPs where everything is bundled into one fibre, but the internet bit usually works fine.

Re: A detailed look at the router provided by my ISP

#78

Post by CameronNemo »

pdonis wrote: post #48
lima wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same in Germany! ISPs hate it because it it makes their lives a lot harder - in cable networks, they now have to deal with a zoo of endpoints on a shared medium vs. a small set of standardized devices. As a customer, I like it.

> ISPs hate it because it it makes their lives a lot harder - in cable networks, they now have to deal with a zoo of endpoints on a shared medium vs. a small set of standardized devices. In other words, ISPs hate it because it forces them to actually do their jobs and be ISPs. The Internet itself is "a zoo of endpoints on a shared medium", and ISP stands for Internet Service Provider.

I work at an ISP of sorts. It is a regional research and education network. We are owned by our members. Heterogeneity is definitely par for the course, but that does not stop us from trying to roll out some ubiquity where we can. Many of our CPE routers are the same make and model, and that makes maintenance and analysis much less error prone. I.e. better service for our member institutions.

If you want an ISP whose competitive advantage is dealing with whatever crazy shit the edge throws at it, then that is your prerogative. But having some ground rules and baseline behavior makes it so that the ISP can focus on more rewarding tasks, such as negotiating peerings, establishing direct tunnels, improving network observability, and predicting necessary backbone upgrades.

Re: A detailed look at the router provided by my ISP

#79

Post by mercora »

j_h wrote: post #67

EU net neutrality regulation grants end users right to use their own equipment. https://fsfe.org/activities/routers/

note there is only Germany, Italy and the Netherlands with this regulation enforced. they even link to a [0]page with progress of that campaign.

[0] https://wiki.fsfe.org/Activities/CompulsoryRouters/#Router_F...

Re: A detailed look at the router provided by my ISP

#80

Post by blaser-waffle »

p1esk wrote: post #58
jason0597 wrote: post #27

It's funny to think that if you were to report all of your findings to your local newspaper (Turkish newspaper in this case), as to how Turkish ISPs have complete access to your router or how Huawei (China) has an SSH key for your router, people would go absolutely ballistic. But for us it's just another day of expected craziness and we're tired of talking about it

Yeah, no one cares outside of hackernews.

Hell, I'd imagine my grandmother or other non-tech family would be glad the telephone company can pop in and fix it
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