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Coronavirus patients start to overwhelm US hospitals

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Re: Coronavirus patients start to overwhelm US hospitals

#151

Post by legulere »

js2 wrote: post #16

The 2017-2018 flu season also overwhelmed US hospitals: https://time.com/5107984/hospitals-handling-burden-flu-patie... https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/season/flu-season-2017-2018.ht... My point isn't that we should take Coronavirus any less seriously this year. Healthcare workers have no vaccine for it. It's on top of the flu. Etc. My point is that we should take the flu more seriously every year. Everyone gets their…

Stop comparing the Coronavirus to the flu. It’s the mistake that brought us to the current situation and which will bring us into much darker times than now if we don’t start to take things seriously.

Re: Coronavirus patients start to overwhelm US hospitals

#152

Post by uxp »

ceejayoz wrote: post #137
uxp wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've received the flu shot three times in my life. I've been hospitalized for influenza three times in my life. Please tell me more about how I've deceived myself. Just as the MMR vaccine is less about you contracting measles and more about your spreading measles to more vulnerable populations that are unable to get the vaccine, the flu shot is identical in that regard. Sure, it helps you not get sick and/or to lesse…

> I've received the flu shot three times in my life. I've been hospitalized for influenza three times in my life. > Please tell me more about how I've deceived myself. Here you go: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

Nope. Like I just stated in my edit, I'm not advocating that anyone forgo the flu shot, but that the flu shot is not 100% effective or 100% side effect free.

It's not bias. It's a fact. My GP is the one that has specifically told me to avoid the shot because I have a history of complications with it.

If you're capable, I'd love for you to diagnose me with some other mental disorder or logical fallacy, but please look at my medical history before you start dismissing my experiences as idiotic.

Re: Coronavirus patients start to overwhelm US hospitals

#153

Post by breuleux »

lordnacho wrote: post #53
thaumasiotes wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about this event makes the flu shot more important than otherwise?

Flu is so common that people don't realise simple things like washing your hands and getting the shot would reduce the cost massively. With Covid19 we can all see the cost, upfront and at the same time. I'm wondering if we could actually kill the flu by sitting still for a bit. Say we stopped the world, which apparently is a possibility now. Would that get rid of it? And if it would, would it be worth it?

I'm no epidemiologist, but I doubt it. It just takes one infected person at the end of the global quarantine to get the ball rolling again.

More importantly, though, the flu (just like SARS-CoV-2) is zoonotic, meaning that it can jump from animals to humans. Even if every human was flu-free, influenza type A still lives on in birds for example, and there's an everpresent risk of it jumping to human beings.

Re: Coronavirus patients start to overwhelm US hospitals

#154

Post by chkaloon »

DoreenMichele wrote: post #69

"To think that we're in New York City and this is happening," he added. "It's like a third-world country type of scenario. It's mind-blowing." Historically, when sexually transmitted disease outbreaks occurred in the US, social workers would ask for the names of everyone you had slept with if you were infected and they would contact them and screen them and treat them. This was effective in stopping outbreaks. We lar…

Interesting points (not sure why you're getting downvotes here). I also wonder if it would help if the medical "establishment" encouraged people to stay home even if they get symptoms, and only seek medical care for serious shortness of breath or if you have co-morbidities that are life-threatening. There is not effective treatment yet, so what is the point of standing in line at the ER? It would also have the effect of freeing up healthcare capacity.

NY Times yesterday had an article about people standing in line outside at the ER for hours. If you can stand in a line outside for hours, you probably don't need admission to the hospital and should leave that capacity for those that really need it.

Re: Coronavirus patients start to overwhelm US hospitals

#155

Post by jerf »

kittiepryde wrote: post #84
dominotw wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "I get sick every time!" No, you don't. This is possible theoretically . yes? There is no guarantee that you get lucky from flu shot at-least once.

As it's been explained to me, you don't get the flu from the flu shot, but the vaccine forces a reaction from your immune system to prepare it to fight the real thing. The way your body reacts can make you feel sick, but you're not actually sick. And the way you feel is much more mild than what the real thing would do to you.

Speaking for myself, I definitely do "get sick" when I get the vaccine, and it has a new strain in it. Sometimes flu shots don't change from year to year, and this year's doesn't actually have anything new in it. When there's nothing new I basically notice nothing.

However, "get sick" is a very vague term. In my case, to be specific, about 3 through 9 hours after the shot with a new strain in it, the shot site is tender and I run a small, but noticeable, fever kind of thing, barely worthy of the term but definitely a bit of an elevated temperature. Then it subsides. It is basically a minor inconvenience. By contrast, while I don't get the flu every year, it can hang with me for two weeks and knock me out cold for a good three or four days in the middle. And the shot generally covers more than one flu.

So yeah, both things may be "get sick" in some sense, but just because they both fit into the phrase "get sick" does not mean they are particularly comparable.

(Incidentally, over the past 10 years I've managed to do a lot of improvement to my immune system for various reasons. When I got the shot with a less-strong immune system, I generally didn't notice any symptoms from a flu shot at all. Everyone's different, but I'd suggest you generally should notice some symptoms from an effectual shot.)

Re: Coronavirus patients start to overwhelm US hospitals

#157

Post by Gibbon1 »

gridlockd wrote: post #140
Ididntdothis wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same here. I got flu shots twice In my life and both times felt worse than any flu I have had without.

Same question to you: The last time you had "the flu", did you get tested for Influenza? Are you sure it was Influenza and not a common cold, for which there is no vaccine anyway?

Taking to some nurse friends they say a lot of people think they have the flu when it's a bad cold. And some people just appear to not be very susceptible. Friends that have gotten the flu appear to be laid out flat for week or more.

Based on that I think I've never had the flu.

Re: Coronavirus patients start to overwhelm US hospitals

#158

Post by jtbayly »

gridlockd wrote: post #140
Ididntdothis wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same here. I got flu shots twice In my life and both times felt worse than any flu I have had without.

Same question to you: The last time you had "the flu", did you get tested for Influenza? Are you sure it was Influenza and not a common cold, for which there is no vaccine anyway?

It doesn't matter. The point still stands. So far he's been worse off when getting the shot than when not. But who's to say what would have happened those two years without the shot? Perhaps it saved him from a severe flu case or even death.

Re: Coronavirus patients start to overwhelm US hospitals

#159

Post by ceejayoz »

uxp wrote: post #152
ceejayoz wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've received the flu shot three times in my life. I've been hospitalized for influenza three times in my life. > Please tell me more about how I've deceived myself. Here you go: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

Nope. Like I just stated in my edit, I'm not advocating that anyone forgo the flu shot, but that the flu shot is not 100% effective or 100% side effect free. It's not bias. It's a fact. My GP is the one that has specifically told me to avoid the shot because I have a history of complications with it. If you're capable, I'd love for you to diagnose me with some other mental disorder or logical fallacy, but please look…

Your edit says:

> I'm very much aware of evidence and studies stating that its "impossible" to get the actual flu from the flu shot, yet I am walking proof of contrary evidence.

This is the famous "anti-tiger rock" argument from the Simpsons. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Much_Apu_About_Nothing)

You have evidence you got the flu.

You do NOT have evidence you got it from the shot.

> My GP is the one that has specifically told me to avoid the shot.

Anti-vaccine cranks exist even amongst medical professionals. Hell, the whole movement was started by one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Wakefield

> the flu shot is not 100% effective or 100% side effect free

This is a strawman. Vaccine proponents agree with these specific statements. It's well known that the effectiveness varies from year to year, and that side effects are possible.

Re: Coronavirus patients start to overwhelm US hospitals

#160

Post by zepearl »

vnchr wrote: post #34

Well, that’s some fear mongering. The article is all anecdotes. Most of the nurses and doctors they talked to are anonymous sources. According to the AHA[1], there are 6,146 hospitals in the US. There are 68,000 confirmed covid-19 cases in the US, and 33,000 of those cases are all in New York—almost 10x more than the next states (4.4k NJ, 3.2k CA)[2]. I don’t know the rate of hospitalization for the infected, but sym…

The amount of intensive care units (and their type) and their location is more important than the total number of hospitals.
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