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U.S. retailers plan to stop paying rent to offset virus closures

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Re: U.S. retailers plan to stop paying rent to offset virus closures

#201
post #19

I used to criticize the big tech companies for stockpiling dozens of billions of dollars instead of investing them into their businesses, but it's only now I can see why a move like that was wise. If at all possible, businesses, like people, should keep a rainy day fund. I wonder if all the companies that used their money for stock buybacks are kicking themselves in the foot right now.

I agree but I think us folks in tech could be overly confident about our continued employment. Yes, companies have cash, but ad spending has dropped tremendously overnight. https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/other/facebook-twitter-revenu... And Apple, well, all of their stores are closed and I highly doubt they're selling a ton of expensive luxury goods right now -- as millions of Americans fear unemployment and a deep r…

Apple did feel good enough to launch new hardware, which is now available. Seems to me it would have been smarter to wait and feed off the momentum of people wanting to touch the goods immediately after they were announced.

Re: U.S. retailers plan to stop paying rent to offset virus closures

#202
post #19

I used to criticize the big tech companies for stockpiling dozens of billions of dollars instead of investing them into their businesses, but it's only now I can see why a move like that was wise. If at all possible, businesses, like people, should keep a rainy day fund. I wonder if all the companies that used their money for stock buybacks are kicking themselves in the foot right now.

It's easier to stockpile billions of dollars when you have no idea what to do with it. The typical business does not have this luxury. Some tech companies are worth more than some country's GDPs. This advice is analogous to a billionaire telling a minimum wage employee to save more.

Not necessarily at the minimum wage level, but I see a lot of low-income earners with new iPhones or nice cars. Of course corps are operating a different level, but at the end of the day, we all would should try to rid ourselves of debt-mentality.

Re: U.S. retailers plan to stop paying rent to offset virus closures

#203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And how do people who make incomes on collecting on obligations (landlords, pensioners, etc.) buy new things, like food and medicine?

Maybe landlords will need to get a real job. I hear Amazon is hiring warehouse staff.

Joke aside, you’re spot on in that the economy can only bear a certain level of rent-seeking. That level is going down now, which might also be seen as a return to normal.

Pumping money in ETFs and real estate (aka passive income) can’t enrich everybody, productive output is required.

Re: U.S. retailers plan to stop paying rent to offset virus closures

#204
post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Banks can get loans for free, and pass that onto credit-worthy businesses. Less credit-worthy businesses can get loans through the SBA through the stimulus. The government's existing programs (assuming the stimulus passes) will breach the extra 90 day gap for most. And to flip it around, if 50% of small businesses go under, banks will be left holding a lot of bad debt. Banks will go under. Landlords won't have renter…

> And to flip it around, if 50% of small businesses go under, banks will be left holding a lot of bad debt. Banks will go under. Landlords won't have renters, and will be left holding mortgages. Without action, the whole system collapses. A lot of businesses are going to go under no matter what and this isn't directly preventable. I don't think exposure to "small businesses" is large enough to cause a systematic fail…

You make a whole slew of unsubstantiated statements.

1) Businesses going under is preventable. If a lot of businesses go under, so will banks when those businesses default on debts.

2) Direct payments would need to be astronomical to protect ordinary people for this duration.

3) Loans from the government directly to people and businesses might work if we had the apparatus for it. The critical thing, though, would be to freeze rents and interest if we did that. It'd be a much more complex scheme to implement. If I have a 10 years left on my mortgage, I could get a 10 year loan from the government for the principal, while the bank would lose out on 3 months' interest.

Re: U.S. retailers plan to stop paying rent to offset virus closures

#205
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to play devils advocate. Wouldn’t that be a large dead weight loss if every corporation had six months of operating expenses sitting around in low interest accounts? In total it could be as large as half the worlds GDP?

Don't leave it in low interest account? It's likely millions of $$$, so index fund would be a likely storage for a lot of it

If trillions of dollars come out of index funds their value is going to crash, even if nothing else is happening.

Large corporations aren’t like people - they can easily move markets on accident.

Re: U.S. retailers plan to stop paying rent to offset virus closures

#206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a nice gesture, but not really in it together. In it together would be rent forgiveness. The bookstore and restaurant have lost business, their customers aren't deferring payments with a gradual payback.

Being a landlord is his business. If the bookstore and restaurant lose business and can't pay their rent, he is losing business and potentially can't pay his mortgage on the building. Being "in it together" means he's giving them time to repay the back rent instead of evicting them if they can't pay, as he legally could. Commercial lease tenants have far fewer rights than residential ones do. It's easy to spout "rent…

I think the crux is in the wording. For me, being "in it together" means if you're struggling I'll struggle with you. The bookstore is losing business and the landlord, in the spirit of helping out, should lose business as well.

Maybe OP is struggling making their own payments because they don't have the rent money. But ultimately it seems the bookstore ends up with the rough end of the deal. The landlord will recover deferred rent, but the bookstore will not get their lost business back.

To clarify, I applaud OP for doing something that eases the stress of payment. But I think the wording could have been better.

Re: U.S. retailers plan to stop paying rent to offset virus closures

#207

For commercial landlords, we should probably let them stop paying their mortgages, etc., and then the Fed can give 0% loans to the banks who hold the other side of those loans. It's the ciiircle of cash!

That’s an awesome idea. You should write a more concrete proposal and send it to the fed. I have a few friend there and and some of the larger REITs. I’d be happy to help get it in the right hands.

Happy to talk with your friend - my email is in my signature - thanks!

Re: U.S. retailers plan to stop paying rent to offset virus closures

#208
post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Keep paying rent if you can pay rent." How in the hell is anyone going to know if retailers or people can actually afford to pay rent?

They will call the bluff and stop paying. Mass evictions probably wont be tolerated.

Having acted as a landlord before, and having rented before, the only thing either party can really do is ask nicely and hope for the best.

On either side of the table, I'd hope for the fastest return to an ideal situation.

Luckily my company is doing fine, and I can work from home, so my income is still stable. Hopefully that makes it easier for the guy I'm paying rent to, to be easier on his other tenants that can't afford to pay.

It's one of those "I might need it myself someday" kinda things.

Re: U.S. retailers plan to stop paying rent to offset virus closures

#209
post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And to flip it around, if 50% of small businesses go under, banks will be left holding a lot of bad debt. Banks will go under. Landlords won't have renters, and will be left holding mortgages. Without action, the whole system collapses. A lot of businesses are going to go under no matter what and this isn't directly preventable. I don't think exposure to "small businesses" is large enough to cause a systematic fail…

You make a whole slew of unsubstantiated statements. 1) Businesses going under is preventable. If a lot of businesses go under, so will banks when those businesses default on debts. 2) Direct payments would need to be astronomical to protect ordinary people for this duration. 3) Loans from the government directly to people and businesses might work if we had the apparatus for it. The critical thing, though, would be…

> 1) Businesses going under is preventable. If a lot of businesses go under, so will banks when those businesses default on debts.

And more businesses will go under with your system. Most businesses that are losing most of their revenue can and have planned for losing revenue for a few months. Businesses can't realistically plan for the kinds of changes you're proposing because in a world where the government can modify by fiat every single contract in the whole world, nothing can realistically be planned. It's a total, forced default. And the specific scheme you're proposing turns every business into a bank - any time anyone owes a payment, you become a lender. This magnifies the effect of all insolvencies - now every business is tangled in a web of credit. It literally is the worst of both worlds - you introduce a shock the same way a large default would and ensure that no one could trust anyone, while also actually adding to the systematic risk by entangling every business in the system of credit. At least mass bankruptcies lead to deleveraging.

This is even if you assume that some sort of super AI can magically modify every contract in the world in such a way to best follow the spirit of what you want and have every party somehow agree with this. In reality, contracts are complicated beasts and you can't just modify one aspect of every contract in the world and expect things to be fine. Contracts are going to have all sorts of contingencies that are going to be highly ambiguous in a world where the government steps in and says certain obligations can be deferred. Again, people not being able to meet their obligations is absolutely nothing new in this world and the system is already designed to deal with this.

> 2) Direct payments would need to be astronomical to protect ordinary people for this duration.

No it doesn't. Keep in mind, it doesn't have to protect everyone from everything. $2000 a month for everyone for 2 months is $4000 * 300,000,000 or roughly 1.2 trillion dollars. This isn't much in the grand scheme of things and you're proposing an intervention of substantially larger magnitude. You can also effectively structure this as a loan for most of the people who don't need it by adding a deferred progressive tax on top of it.

> 3) Loans from the government directly to people and businesses might work if we had the apparatus for it. The critical thing, though, would be to freeze rents and interest if we did that. It'd be a much more complex scheme to implement. If I have a 10 years left on my mortgage, I could get a 10 year loan from the government for the principal, while the bank would lose out on 3 months' interest.

This doesn't make any sense - you're the one who proposed that businesses that are screwed by your scheme could survive by borrowing from the government. Why would that work in your scheme but not here? I don't understand the bit about your mortgage - why would you need to borrow (and why would anyone lend you) more than the payments you need to make for the next couple of months? Any sort of emergency government funding would be a credit line akin to extending payments, not a long fixed-term loan.

Again, I don't see any kind of realistic proposal here - it feels like a word game to come up with a vaguely workable-sounding (to people who don't understand how the economy works) plan that helps specific classes of people at the expense of everyone else.

Re: U.S. retailers plan to stop paying rent to offset virus closures

#210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This simply doesn't work at all. First, the situation is not that dire to start with, most people and businesses can meet their obligations. We don't have anything remotely close to a financial crisis. It makes no sense to effectively turn the entire economy into a command economy and effectively declare a default to save what appears to be a fairly small part of the economy that will have trouble. You can have targe…

> First, the situation is not that dire to start with, most people and businesses can meet their obligations. 76% of americans live paycheck-to-paycheck. Regardless of if you like it or not, a time will come when massive amounts of rents aren't paid. It can either fully immiserate the economy (most likely course of action), or it can be paused. > the markets simply won't function at all even on a purely basic level C…

> Can we please stop pretending that this zombie market we've propped up since 2008 works? If you like markets, then you shouldn't agree with the fact that the government can effectively be held hostage every decade or so due to "too big to fail."

Let's also not forget that what's being proposed here is a TBTF argument. The argument here is that letting a bunch of small businesses that don't have enough saved up to survive a few months of no revenue go under is going to be so bad for the economy that we have to literally suspend the enforcement of contracts more generally to save them. Of course, if this is actually the case, we could just bail out the affected businesses instead of saying goodbye to the system of contracts more generally. And I don't believe we in such a situation yet either. We can probably just let them fail. Most small businesses are very replaceable and failure rates are very high to begin with.

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