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Private client-side-only PWAs are hard, but now Apple made them impossible

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Re: Private client-side-only PWAs are hard, but now Apple made them impossible

#261

Post by shadowgovt »

uglycoyote wrote: post #207
shadowgovt wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

... or find it really necessary. Banks, for example, have the clout to expect this kind of behavior. The built-up reputation and long-term partnerships a company and a bank build up can out-value all kinds of IT inconveniences.

I don't know if you meant from the consumer perspective, but if my bank started telling me what kind of a phone or computer I needed to have to use their services I would definitely find another bank! I'm not sure if clout is the right word for what what banks have, it's more like a kind of lock-in because of having to sign a million pieces of paper to change banks, that makes people put up with a certain amount of I…

You might, but there's a long history of bank websites only working in Internet Explorer, and it was only in recent years that this changed.

Re: Private client-side-only PWAs are hard, but now Apple made them impossible

#262

Post by vbezhenar »

starbugs wrote: post #105
vbezhenar wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Browsers keep IndexedDB data indefinitely, they don't delete it.

There is no guarantee that the data will be persisted permanently. Users can erase it by mistake easily using privacy settings. There's also quite ambivalent size restrictions. And last but not least, Incognito mode, which also is implemented in a number of different ways in practice, depending on the browser. Basically, you cannot be sure that you can use it to persist data at all.

Size restriction will cause error at write time, it won't silently delete data. User error is user error, that's it. I know user who was deleting files in his Windows directory to free some space. Incognito mode is not intended for web apps usage, it's more for porn and things like that, I don't think that it's very relevant.

It works for majority of standard cases and when it does not work, user will receive error message, so he'll be aware. Not the case for Apple devices anymore.

Re: Private client-side-only PWAs are hard, but now Apple made them impossible

#263

Post by shadowgovt »

dev_tty01 wrote: post #155
shadowgovt wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a hurdle that involves de-anonymization of the user.

No, Apple offers anonymous user credential technology. Server gets unique identifier and ability to authenticate with no actual user info. Server gets an anonymous redirected email for sending info to the user. Apple is the intermediary. Of course, you can choose not to trust Apple, but Apple already has my info and their business model is not predicated on tracking and advertising. I'd rather continue to trust them…

I choose differently, but my choice may matter to you if I throw up my hands and say "Too much effort; if the user visits my site in Safari, I'm just going to toss up a banner page that says "this site does not work in your browser."

It's a power-play on Apple's part to intermediate themselves where their inter-mediation isn't necessary. And all kinds of customers (enterprise in particular) won't appreciate Apple getting a free "hi hello" signal on how much their company uses some service that leverages this scheme. Especially if Apple is a potential competitor to them.

Re: Private client-side-only PWAs are hard, but now Apple made them impossible

#264

Post by lostmsu »

dx87 wrote: post #218
mattmanser wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? Are you paying for it? To you, it's trivial amount of data that you can wipe if you somehow desperately need the 1mb, to them it quickly adds up to significant costs. I find this position absurd, just like the suggestion that everyone should start programming complicated user hostile save flows.

Yes, it's their device, they literally are paying for it. What kind of question is that.

He was asking about paying for the game.

Re: Private client-side-only PWAs are hard, but now Apple made them impossible

#265

Post by benetzz »

sonofaplum wrote: post #203
kkarakk wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people don't care about logging into services anymore. just implement a fb login and it takes less than 5 secs

If you've ever looked at user analytics you know this is absolutely not true

I'm interested. As a iOS developer I always found that user want to skip the login page soon as possibile, if there is an FB button they press it. Do you have different experiences of it?

Re: Private client-side-only PWAs are hard, but now Apple made them impossible

#266

Post by blurbleblurble »

diegoperini wrote: post #222
aquadrop wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, allowing, then what? I still don't want to deal with export/import as a user.

I have a few suggestions in the comment section you may or may not find agreeable.

With all due respect, this comes off as apologizing for Apple's disagreeable design choice.

If anything, it should be on Apple and the browser vendors to make local storage more useful by default, not less useful. Your suggestions might as well be aimed at browser vendors, who could conceivably offer user friendly controls for local storage (e.g. import/export without the dev panel). But as is usually the case each of the browser vendors has these little annoying ways that they cripple the browser to protect their business models. Apple is no exception to this. Look at how they've hampered the WebGPU process. Look at the history of their PWA support.

Re: Private client-side-only PWAs are hard, but now Apple made them impossible

#267

Post by hombre_fatal »

dx87 wrote: post #218
mattmanser wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? Are you paying for it? To you, it's trivial amount of data that you can wipe if you somehow desperately need the 1mb, to them it quickly adds up to significant costs. I find this position absurd, just like the suggestion that everyone should start programming complicated user hostile save flows.

Yes, it's their device, they literally are paying for it. What kind of question is that.

The above comment was talking about persisting save files to someone else's servers.

Re: Private client-side-only PWAs are hard, but now Apple made them impossible

#268

Post by Veen »

robenkleene wrote: post #233
Veen wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If this were true, how would you explain the recent improvements to Safari on the iPad that make it as capable as desktop Safari. Until last year Google Docs did not work in Safari on the iPad. Now it works very well indeed. The same is true of most web apps.

This is a great point with a simple explanation: How good Safari was on iPad was irrelevant before mouse support. Before mouse support, we had apps made with UIKit, which is a touch-first app framework, competing with web apps, which are keyboard-and-mouse first. So UIKit apps won, because UIKit apps are better for touch. With mouse support, that situation becomes exactly inverted: In UIKit apps, the keyboard and mou…

We’re all speculating about Apple’s motivation, but none of us really knows why Apple made its decision. Perhaps it’s best to focus on the trade-offs—privacy vs. functionality—and not the speculative Kremlinology.

Re: Private client-side-only PWAs are hard, but now Apple made them impossible

#270

Post by hombre_fatal »

jrockway wrote: post #108
megous wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you want more access, make a native app (with or without web technologies). How's installing a native app better for a random user privacy or security wise, exactly?

You have to send every change to Apple before the user can run the code. In theory, that allows Apple to do more checks than when the code is dynamically loaded from your web server.

Apple doesn't care if your app logs your usage to Google Analytics every 1000ms.

Besides, in the browser you have trivial tools like uBlock and the network tab. In native apps, you have to use mitmproxy just to see what the app is doing at all.

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