Private client-side-only PWAs are hard, but now Apple made them impossible • Hacker News Board

Re: Private client-side-only PWAs are hard, but now Apple made them impossible

#51

Post by IvanK_net » Wed, Mar 25, 2020, 1:00 PM UTC

starbugs wrote: post #29

Is this really that big of a problem? You had to be expecting that local storage is deleted without any notice anyway, in every web app.

I have many useful files in my computer, which I don't want to be deleted. You are saying, that it is ok, if the OS deletes all files in my computer from time to time.

A local storage is the only way webapps can store any data in your computer (other than asking you to manually load / save some configuration file). Not all webapps can afford cloud storage for all user.

Re: Private client-side-only PWAs are hard, but now Apple made them impossible

#52

Post by callmeal » Wed, Mar 25, 2020, 1:00 PM UTC

brazzy wrote: post #25

marcosdumay wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no balance. You just let the user set any permission and make the prompts unobtrusive.

There is no such thing as an "unobtrusive" prompt.

Actually there is - firefox does it all the time. It's simple really - just add a new obscure configuration parameter and tada - the browser starts ignoring your dns resolution setting and automatically uses a preconfigured one. No need for a prompt, obtrusive or otherwise.

network.trr.mode I'm looking at you.

Re: Private client-side-only PWAs are hard, but now Apple made them impossible

#53

Post by diegoperini » Wed, Mar 25, 2020, 1:00 PM UTC

jwr wrote: post #7

I have an app which isn't offline, but I wanted to make use of IndexedDB and LocalStorage to make things faster for users. Now I wonder if it's worth the effort to even try. I think this pretty much kills the utility of all local storage initiatives. My app is an inventory control system used by businesses that build electronics ( https://partsbox.com/ ). Deleting client-side data after 7 days is ridiculous. You can'…

Both your and Apple's concerns are valid. This change makes the fact (arguably) that these local storages are caches apparent.

Some web apps already saw the danger of having an easily purge-able storage on the client side and simply implemented an export function for their tools. I admire those tools more than the ones who overuse local storage for everything.

One such tool is draw.io, a flowchart maker. You use the app, persist everything in local storage and when you are done, you export your project into a file, all happening on the client side. When you need to edit, you import the file on launch. It's portable, it's protected from browser bugs/decisions and imho pretty user (privacy) friendly.

Re: Private client-side-only PWAs are hard, but now Apple made them impossible

#54

Post by lotsofpulp » Wed, Mar 25, 2020, 1:01 PM UTC

hu3 wrote: post #40

lotsofpulp wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The problem is that the users are so brainwashed from decades of Marketing. Is there any other device or ecosystem of devices where my parents can fix their problems by turning it off and on? The fact that I have 80 years old grandparents who can’t read English using iPads and iPhones is not just marketing, that’s “not having to google and download malware bytes and ccleaner and go into regedit” to maybe fix issues…

Android? I've had to aid my parents using Apple devices just as much as Android (father likes iPhone, mother prefers Samsung Galaxy). edit: so much for anecdotes...

My dad downloaded a bunch of malware on his one plus. I refused to waste my time helping him uninstall it (he feels that it’s his god given duty to click on everything, and the shadier the source, the more click worthy it is). So he tossed it and got an iPhone. Now he can click all he wants.

Also android doesn’t have any tablets comparable to iPad, and they don’t or didn’t have any video call app as easy to use as FaceTime. Although, whatsapp video may be just as good now, but I have a few grandparents and a great grandparent who don’t have phone numbers, so FaceTime works better in our family.

Also, we use our devices until they die. So we need them getting security updates as long as possible, which doesn’t happen on Android. We have 4+ year old iPhones and iPads being used, all pretty much up to date on security updates.

My point is whatever marketing Apple does, the product is clearly superior in many ways so it’s ridiculous to claim people are just “brainwashed”.

Re: Private client-side-only PWAs are hard, but now Apple made them impossible

#55

Post by vbezhenar » Wed, Mar 25, 2020, 1:02 PM UTC

scarface74 wrote: post #31

akmarinov wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No way that's happening on iOS as long as Apple takes 30% off the top

Yes because think of all the money Apple gets from taking 30% all of the free apps that would be free web apps....

There are very few free apps. Most of apps are paid with ads or external subscription. And Apple wants cut there as well.

Re: Private client-side-only PWAs are hard, but now Apple made them impossible

#56

Post by im3w1l » Wed, Mar 25, 2020, 1:02 PM UTC

vbezhenar wrote: post #42

yohannparis wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Webkit's website says: "[..] deleting all of a website’s script-writable storage after seven days of Safari use without user interaction on the site." It is not clear that a user coming to your website before the 7 days, even offline, is exempt of it.

User not coming to website 7 days can't be invalid use-case. Losing important data simply because someone went on vacation is unacceptable.

So store this data on the server.

Re: Private client-side-only PWAs are hard, but now Apple made them impossible

#57

Post by starbugs » Wed, Mar 25, 2020, 1:02 PM UTC

IvanK_net wrote: post #51

starbugs wrote: post #29

Is this really that big of a problem? You had to be expecting that local storage is deleted without any notice anyway, in every web app.

I have many useful files in my computer, which I don't want to be deleted. You are saying, that it is ok, if the OS deletes all files in my computer from time to time. A local storage is the only way webapps can store any data in your computer (other than asking you to manually load / save some configuration file). Not all webapps can afford cloud storage for all user.

I am not saying that it is OK to delete all your files. I am saying it has always been like that in the case of a browser's local storage.

As I said, that use case was out of the window long before. From the start, as far as I know.

No browser has ever given you any definite promise on whether your local storage data will be kept. That's also true for IndexedDB. So you need a mechanism to restore that data, be it cloud storage or something else.

If you wanted to support Safari private browsing, you even had to deal with local storage not being available _at all_.

Re: Private client-side-only PWAs are hard, but now Apple made them impossible

#58

Post by matkalaukku » Wed, Mar 25, 2020, 1:03 PM UTC

meesterdude wrote: post #28

webkit is open source - can't this be changed (be it by fork, or a commit proposal?)

Sure it can be forked, but the problem is the millions of devices running Apple's version of Safari/WebKit on iOS without any say in it except switching to Android.

Re: Private client-side-only PWAs are hard, but now Apple made them impossible

#59

Post by vbezhenar » Wed, Mar 25, 2020, 1:04 PM UTC

brazzy wrote: post #25

marcosdumay wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no balance. You just let the user set any permission and make the prompts unobtrusive.

There is no such thing as an "unobtrusive" prompt.

I configured my Chrome to block sounds on all websites except for a few selected ones. Now if blocked website plays sound, I can see tiny icon in right of my URL bad. It's absolutely unobtrusive, yet I can enable sound with two clicks.

Re: Private client-side-only PWAs are hard, but now Apple made them impossible

#60

Post by robenkleene » Wed, Mar 25, 2020, 1:04 PM UTC

I’m guessing that Apple will start hindering web apps because the new mouse support in iPadOS is going to be such a boon to web apps. Because of sandboxing, web apps are the only cross-platform apps that can run in their full versions on iPadOS. I wrote a quick summary of the situation[0].

Therefore, since native apps are more of a platform differentiator than web apps, moving forward we can expect Apple to start systemically hindering web apps, especially on ones that are good on iPadOS, in order to boost native apps.

(I’m not saying this necessarily the start of this, but I am saying I'm not surprised. This is exactly the type change, targeting the exact type of app I’d expect to be targeted.)

[0]: https://blog.robenkleene.com/2020/03/20/ipadoss-new-mouse-su...