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U.S. retailers plan to stop paying rent to offset virus closures

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Re: U.S. retailers plan to stop paying rent to offset virus closures

#151

Post by pinkfoot »

bawolff wrote: post #149
henrikschroder wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You ask them. If they say no, then they can't pay rent. "OMG everyone is going to totally take advantage of this!" Not everyone, but yes, plenty of people and business will. "OMG that's unfair." Yes, I acknowledged that from the start. The whole point of my argument is that this might still be preferable to the alternative, it might still be better than sticking to what's 100% fair, because collectively we might emer…

Ok. Im a (small) landlord. None of my tennants claim to be able to pay rent. How am I buying groceries this month?

I cannot speak for others, but we played open cards - showed each other our company and family finances.

We have come to a compromise that keeps both parties fed.

Re: U.S. retailers plan to stop paying rent to offset virus closures

#152

Post by evandijk70 »

adt2bt wrote: post #61
nostromo wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a recipe for bank failures and a financial crisis.

Aren’t they also freed from servicing their debts as well? Why does pausing the debt cycle affect them disproportionately?

A portion of their debts are to consumers, in checking and saving accounts. Consumers still need to buy food.

Re: U.S. retailers plan to stop paying rent to offset virus closures

#153

Post by oulu2006 »

dugmartin wrote: post #33

My wife and I just bought a small commercial building 6 months ago (great timing). We have already offered rent deferment to our tenants (a restaurant, a bookstore and a few professional offices) with a gradual payback. We are all in this together.

That's a nice gesture, but not really in it together.

In it together would be rent forgiveness.

The bookstore and restaurant have lost business, their customers aren't deferring payments with a gradual payback.

Re: U.S. retailers plan to stop paying rent to offset virus closures

#154

Post by mileycyrusXOXO »

candybar wrote: post #135
wegs wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure you can. You stop rent. You stop mortgage interest. You pause mortgage principal. You do that across the board for every rental, contract, and debt obligation in America. In 90 days, it expires, and everything starts back up again. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1YbtJGn7ida2IYNgwCFk3Sjhs...

This simply doesn't work at all. First, the situation is not that dire to start with, most people and businesses can meet their obligations. We don't have anything remotely close to a financial crisis. It makes no sense to effectively turn the entire economy into a command economy and effectively declare a default to save what appears to be a fairly small part of the economy that will have trouble. You can have targe…

> most people and businesses can meet their obligations.

No they can't, for some it is that dire. 1/5th of Americans are unemployed as of last week - how many of them were living paycheck to paycheck?

Re: U.S. retailers plan to stop paying rent to offset virus closures

#155

Post by perlwle »

sporkland wrote: post #141
dugmartin wrote: post #33

My wife and I just bought a small commercial building 6 months ago (great timing). We have already offered rent deferment to our tenants (a restaurant, a bookstore and a few professional offices) with a gradual payback. We are all in this together.

Honestly curious, but I'm sure it will sound accusatory. They (your tenants) permanently lose the business for the months the economy is shut down. But you as a land lord expect to be made whole just over a longer timespan. How is that in it together? In it together feels like you'd lose some portion of the rent you are charging or all of it and expect some amount of relief from the government. I mostly ask because I…

I can share how people in China deal with this.

During the high of the coronavirus outbreak, for individual or company, one could call the banks to postpone mortgages, loans or credit card payment for 1 to 3 months. Business may get longer extension if the situation worsen. That was possible in February, less so now as life turns normal gradually since March. Work resumed, shopping mall reopened etc. schools still closed though.

As for rent, Business tenants negotiate with landlord for rent forgiveness, something like half month or one month rent.

Re: U.S. retailers plan to stop paying rent to offset virus closures

#156

Post by landryraccoon »

im3w1l wrote: post #140
joe_the_user wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't turn off and on the economy like a switch. Actually, you can. Money transactions can be suspended and goods can be distributed directly. If banks fail, we have another financial crisis. The last one took a decade to recover from. Not even, what we're looking at is the dead Frankenstein construction created to avoid dealing excess speculation of last time. The economy has been artificially supported by QE si…

If it goes on for any length of time there will be an explosion in organized crime as people seek out the black market. This is how you get a failed state.

Normally yes, but criminals are just as vulnerable to viral infection as anyone else.

The basic question needs to be answered - is this virus bad enough to shut down an economy? If the answer is yes, then renaming the economy from "state sanctioned" to "black market" does nothing - the black market is just as crushed by the pandemic as any other.

What people are arguing for when they argue for a shutdown is that the economy is going to be wrecked no matter what if the pandemic is allowed to rage unchecked. That being the case, there is no tradeoff - shut down the economy to save lives and wreck the economy, or continue with business as usual AND wreck the economy AND have many more lives lost.

Re: U.S. retailers plan to stop paying rent to offset virus closures

#157

Post by suryherhhd »

landryraccoon wrote: post #156
im3w1l wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it goes on for any length of time there will be an explosion in organized crime as people seek out the black market. This is how you get a failed state.

Normally yes, but criminals are just as vulnerable to viral infection as anyone else. The basic question needs to be answered - is this virus bad enough to shut down an economy? If the answer is yes, then renaming the economy from "state sanctioned" to "black market" does nothing - the black market is just as crushed by the pandemic as any other. What people are arguing for when they argue for a shutdown is that the…

What are you smoking? This isn't Captain Planet where the gangs all come from wide ranging and diverse backgrounds, most people who might engage in black market activities are not the same people who are at risk of dying from the virus. There's no scythe of correction in play here. Similarly, the people who are most willing to go outside to engage with a black market as consumers aren't in that group either.

This fantasy where you can just shut down a country for an undisclosed amount of time and break even is an almost archetypical example of why most democracies are representative democracies.

Re: U.S. retailers plan to stop paying rent to offset virus closures

#158

Post by landryraccoon »

suryherhhd wrote: post #157
landryraccoon wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Normally yes, but criminals are just as vulnerable to viral infection as anyone else. The basic question needs to be answered - is this virus bad enough to shut down an economy? If the answer is yes, then renaming the economy from "state sanctioned" to "black market" does nothing - the black market is just as crushed by the pandemic as any other. What people are arguing for when they argue for a shutdown is that the…

What are you smoking? This isn't Captain Planet where the gangs all come from wide ranging and diverse backgrounds, most people who might engage in black market activities are not the same people who are at risk of dying from the virus. There's no scythe of correction in play here. Similarly, the people who are most willing to go outside to engage with a black market as consumers aren't in that group either. This fan…

> most people who might engage in black market activities are not the same people who are at risk of dying from the virus.

That is a very bold claim.

Do you have data on the age distribution and comorbidities of criminals vs the general population? I find the claim that on average criminals will be both younger and healthier than the general population to be quite dubious. At the very least, I'd expect you to be able to show some evidence of this claim.

Re: U.S. retailers plan to stop paying rent to offset virus closures

#159

Post by Red_Leaves_Flyy »

marcus0x62 wrote: post #119
joe_the_user wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pensions and institutions people need to survive get a bailout. Speculators lose their shirts.

What’s the difference between a worthy investor and a speculator? Is it sort of like the difference between a church and a cult?

Net worth?

Re: U.S. retailers plan to stop paying rent to offset virus closures

#160

Post by wegs »

candybar wrote: post #135
wegs wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure you can. You stop rent. You stop mortgage interest. You pause mortgage principal. You do that across the board for every rental, contract, and debt obligation in America. In 90 days, it expires, and everything starts back up again. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1YbtJGn7ida2IYNgwCFk3Sjhs...

This simply doesn't work at all. First, the situation is not that dire to start with, most people and businesses can meet their obligations. We don't have anything remotely close to a financial crisis. It makes no sense to effectively turn the entire economy into a command economy and effectively declare a default to save what appears to be a fairly small part of the economy that will have trouble. You can have targe…

You don't remove credit. You delay payments by 60 days.

And you don't have a command economy. Net 30 terms become Net 90 for a while. That's not a world-shattering explosion. Everyone who buys something has to pay -- they just have the option to pay a little bit later. Everyone who borrows something gets it free for a short while.

And there are two pieces that really make this work:

1. Much of that is offset by the current ~0% interest from the fed. Ultimately, if the 60 day gap kills you, then you chains (ultimately landing with banks) can borrow money with effectively zero interest.

2) Relationships matter. I don't think businesses will do douchebaggy things: Most want to keep employees, customers, and partners.

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