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Our Self-Isolating Future: How working from home could reshape society

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Re: Our Self-Isolating Future: How working from home could reshape society

#121

I raised this on Ask HN to little fanfare so hoping people could opine on my thoughts here: Does anyone else worry that the natural progression from this mass WFH will simply lead to outsourcing in other countries instead of hiring American? Now that companies are learning the hard way to WFH, and were seeing memes like “now we’ll know which meetings could have been emails,” does it concern you all that the next logi…

Yes and no.

For work that doesn't require a lot of communication and collaboration, it'll be easy to outsource to other countries, just like now.

For work that is intensely collaborative, having the team speaking one language in one (or adjacent) time zones is key.

Re: Our Self-Isolating Future: How working from home could reshape society

#122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems that only once you have kids you realize how much of society that doesn't make sense to you is the way it is in order to accommodate the logistics of children and schooling.

I don't understand this at all. As someone who doesn't have children it's the extreme opposite to me. Modern society is actively hostile to having children.

It's both. As a non-parent, you can have a vague, high-level idea about the demands of parenthood, but there's a lot of crucial and non-obvious details that aren't communicated to people without kids - mostly because it's either super boring or really tacit knowledge. So the parts of society that are run by parents tend to be kid-friendly; the parts run by childless are the opposite.

Examples of nonobvious consequences of parenthood include:

- Parents of pre-teens tend to be constantly late for everything. That's not because of lack of organization, but because the kid will randomly soil their clothes or do something else that needs to be taken care of immediately.

- Parents are also constantly interrupted. Especially with the first kid, it seems everything is a life-threatening emergency, so the moment it even looks at you funny, you'll start calling your spouse at work to consult or coordinate a doctor's appointment. Some workplaces accommodate that (mostly those staffed by other parents), some don't. It becomes a question you start asking about on the interviews.

- Say your company offers to send you to a conference or a training seminar. You'd probably jump at the occasion (yay, free education and zero responsibility, all on paid company time!), but you might be wondering why your coworkers all refuse to go, and don't even show any excitement about it. It's probably not because they're lazy, or just dispassionate 9-5 workers. It's likely because they're parents, and you can't just go to a conference as a parent. It's a huge logistical challenge.

- Parents like big cars because of storage space. Going up and down the stairs with stuff gets tiring really fast, so you end up e.g. storing trolley and surplus diapers in the car. If you didn't want a car before, you'll start to want one now. This goes against the general trend of environmentally-conscious living.

- If you aren't addicted to coffee yet you will be after having a child. You'll also learn that polyphasic sleep is a real thing (if it wasn't, nobody would survive the first months of parenthood).

- You'll start talking about shit with other people. And I mean literal shit.

- You'll bankrupt yourself if you try to buy everything new for the kid; you'll likely and out of a sudden become super frugal and very aware of all local clothes/items exchange/giveaway groups.

- A babysitter isn't a luxury, it's mental healthcare in the city.

I could go on and on, but it's late and my kid will wake up in about 5 hours. I'll be drinking an extra coffee tomorrow.

Re: Our Self-Isolating Future: How working from home could reshape society

#123
post #90

This absolutely will be the future of society. It was already happening and this will just accelerate it. Between streaming, gaming, video calling, food delivery, online dating, etc..., we're already most of the way there. Social spaces are shut down for the foreseeable future and might never recover. As someone who's made a living in the restaurant sector most of their career, this is both terrifying but also exciti…

I, too, am strongly hoping this will radically evolve our society to leverage more technology. I really wish the US stimulus package would instead focus on investing in re-educating the population online for those that made their living in the service industry and the like. Furthermore, automating that work and doubling down on promoting a work from home culture. This is how we prepare for the next epidemic.

In my opinion, a bad economy is the best time to get an education. My extreme hope is getting closer to our cyborg future by furthering advancements in digital communication and human-computer interfacing.

Re: Our Self-Isolating Future: How working from home could reshape society

#124
post #4

I'm lucky enough to be able to work from home, and I'm having mixed feelings about it. As usual, there are pros and cons to everything. Pros: - Able to be at home all day, feel I have more flexibility. Cons: - I miss cycling to work. - I miss getting out the house - I miss chatting to colleagues - I miss lots of indirect help from other developers. I might feel differently if I had to drive to work, as I hated that.…

What's stopping you from getting out of the house? Cycle before work, and after work.

A justification.

Re: Our Self-Isolating Future: How working from home could reshape society

#125
post #32
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I'm two weeks into this and badly miss my office. Edit: no children either, just easier to work with people in the same building sometimes.

Yep, me too. Early 30s and childless. I've never liked working from home, and now I'm forced to do it. It sucks. I like having someone looking over my shoulder (look what I'm spending time on right now!). I like having a bus to catch at 3:00 so my day ends right there. I like having a commute that separates work from home. I like having people to talk to and make jokes with. I like having separate work and home compu…

I like having a separate work space, a separate work computer, and half an hour's bike ride between work and home. But you can still do those things while working from home, and you end up living cheaper with a more customizable workplace (I can play whatever radio I want, I can set the temperature how I like it...), and no-one looking over your shoulder (I really can't understand seeing that as a positive). If you try to just work in the space where you were living without adapting it at all then yeah it's not gonna go well. But there can be upsides once you've taken the time and effort to adapt.

Re: Our Self-Isolating Future: How working from home could reshape society

#126

I raised this on Ask HN to little fanfare so hoping people could opine on my thoughts here: Does anyone else worry that the natural progression from this mass WFH will simply lead to outsourcing in other countries instead of hiring American? Now that companies are learning the hard way to WFH, and were seeing memes like “now we’ll know which meetings could have been emails,” does it concern you all that the next logi…

Depends on many variables, but salaries might be able to lower as people take advantage of moving to places with lower cost of living.

Re: Our Self-Isolating Future: How working from home could reshape society

#127
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As in Stephenson's Diamond Age .

I've been thinking about this lately since I'm rereading it while my WFH with a 5 year old who needs to be educated. Being completely raised by the book as Nell is wasn't what the book was intended for either by it's creator, Hackworth, or the patron, Finkle-McGraw. It was instead intended as a supplement for the failings of traditional education. For small kids all of the online options are only supplements to the i…

Miranda played a much larger role in Nell's education than merely acting a role in the Primer.

Re: Our Self-Isolating Future: How working from home could reshape society

#128
So far for me and my family, Coronavirus has been a relatively minor inconvenience compared to what others are apparently going through. I already do remote work from home and hardly go anywhere other than to get groceries or takeout.

I began doing remote work about 8 years ago while homeless. It was a good solution for my circumstances and it was a good solution for my health issues that were the actual root cause of my financial problems and homelessness.

Doing remote work has helped me protect my health and grow gradually healthier when that's not supposed to be possible. So I can't help but wonder how many people with serious health issues could be healthier if they lived more or less under quarantine.

I also homeschooled my special-needs sons for years. One if them has the same medical condition I have. They also have other issues.

As a homeschooling mom, I was a remote volunteer worker for an education related organization. They helped me get to a related conference on the other side of the continent where I was a very low level presenter.

I feel strongly that people with "quirks" -- health issues, ADHD, etc -- are the ones at the most risk of homelessness because they just can't make a "normal" life work and we do a generally poor job of telling people that there are lots of other ways to live and work, you just have to find the ones that work for you.

I've spent some years trying to develop websites and the like to help homeless people and people at risk of homelessness to find ways to make their lives work. I think remote work and other "irregular" work options are key to that.

I've never gotten much traction and the past decade has cured me of childhood brainwashing where I was always at the top of my class and the world around me kept saying I mattered and all. At this point, I'm quite convinced that I shall always be perpetually ignored.

I think I can make my own life work, so I sort of don't care anymore. But it seems like a missed opportunity because I already know so very much about germ control, working remotely, etc.

I'm not sure what my point is. I'm not sure I have a point or that there is any point to trying to talk to with people about this. Recent years have painted me as some kind of clown that no one should take seriously.

I think a lot of these decisions are going to de facto be made by the usual suspects for whom "normal" life works well, which is how and why they got into power. And I think that fact will help insure that people conclude that this doesn't really work and it needs to be temporary and it's imperative we return to "normal" as soon as possible.

But working from home was the historic norm. Family farms and craftspeople with a shop in one part of the building and their home in the same building and even retail establishments with the owners living upstairs was the norm for much of human history. Separating our living and working spaces is relatively recent. It's the weird and new thing.

My father was old enough to be my grandfather and I grew up with a garden in the backyard and a father who hunted and am mother who sewed a lot of my clothes. It was, in some ways, like a throwback to a prior century.

So those "old ways" are kind of living memory for me. And I never know how to effectively talk to people and say "No, seriously, it doesn't have to be this way. We don't have to accept these kinds of problems as the price for having a paycheck or something."

I hope we embrace a philosophy that gives people more options, not fewer. I hope we can find the opportunities and the upside in this situation.

But most people don't really want that. People don't like change. They hate hearing that something like this has a silver lining. So I'm not very optimistic that we will.

Re: Our Self-Isolating Future: How working from home could reshape society

#129
post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sort of makes you wonder where we went wrong. Other social forms had children integrated into the things adults do.

The part where it was made illegal for children to work. Humans had children integrated into the things adults do, too. I don't even get who pushed for this. It just alienates young adults from life, opening paths for them to turn to drugs and other destructive behaviors.

The industrial revolution probably had something to do with it. No push for kids to stay out of work before that.

Re: Our Self-Isolating Future: How working from home could reshape society

#130

Outside of young, childless tech workers, this sudden remote work experiment is not going well for most people I know. This isn’t the controlled trial of remote work that these think pieces suggest. Instead, everyone is forcefully stuck at home without time to prepare. Parents are juggling childcare with getting work done, while fighting an uphill battle against IT systems that weren’t prepared for everyone going WFH…

I WFH for 6 years at my last job. I didn't have a child. Now I have one, and with the SO that doesn't have to work at this time, it's still hard.
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