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Taiwan's new 'electronic fence' for quarantines leads wave of virus monitoring

reuters.com

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Re: Taiwan's new 'electronic fence' for quarantines leads wave of virus monitoring

#181

Post by unityByFreedom »

huangc10 wrote: post #14

Like other people are saying, there's definitely ways around this. The only reason why Taiwan has been so successful in battling Coronavirus is that there is national pride in acting as a whole and doing what's best for society. There is huge shame to the family for people who defy. Taiwanese people generally know what helps society and when to listen. It is the cultural influence/mix of Chinese and Japanese governme…

> The only reason why Taiwan has been so successful in battling Coronavirus is that there is national pride in acting as a whole and doing what's best for society

I disagree. There are idiots in Taiwan that can ruin it just like anywhere. One nightclubber violating quarantine was just fined the amount cited in this article ($30k USD).

Taiwan has been able to control the virus as a direct result of electing Tsai Ing-wen in January 2020. Her Vice President managed the SARS outbreak for Taiwan in 2002-2004, and since Taiwan was not allowed to participate in the WHO, they had to figure out for themselves how to deal with that outbreak. They are now better prepared.

Tsai Ing-wen's opposing candidate, Han Kuo-yu, wanted to unify with China. He appeared to have momentum from winning the mayoral election in Kaohsiung, which is the 2nd largest city in Taiwan. Prior to his win there in 2018, Kaohsiung had always had a DPP mayor, DPP having been founded by people who fought for an end to martial law and the beginning of elections.

In fact, the elections in Taiwan were on January 11 and may have played a role in China's delay in notifying the world community about the outbreak. The doctor who wanted to share the news (and has since died due to contracting the virus) was detained on January 1st, and China did not announce the outbreak until January 20th.

Chinese-backed media was pushing Han Kuo-yu very hard during this election, spreading lots of fake news, and it was not clear whether or not he would pull an out-of-nowhere win like the other right-wing nuts who've been elected all over the world. Had he been elected, things would be different. I doubt he would have shut down flights to China. Fortunately, the Taiwanese people gave Tsai Ing-wen the biggest margin of victory Taiwan has ever seen in a presidential election.

Re: Taiwan's new 'electronic fence' for quarantines leads wave of virus monitoring

#182

Post by unityByFreedom »

landryraccoon wrote: post #57
huangc10 wrote: post #14

Like other people are saying, there's definitely ways around this. The only reason why Taiwan has been so successful in battling Coronavirus is that there is national pride in acting as a whole and doing what's best for society. There is huge shame to the family for people who defy. Taiwanese people generally know what helps society and when to listen. It is the cultural influence/mix of Chinese and Japanese governme…

I don’t think it’s only culture and this just happened by itself. The leadership of President Tsai Ing-wen (蔡英文) surely was a factor as well. Culture works in conjunction with good policy and leadership. I would be wary of attributing too much to the relatively immutable and hand-wavy notion of culture.

Absolutely, the opposing candidate was very pro-unification with China. With Tsai they got sensibility and a former health minister as VP.

Re: Taiwan's new 'electronic fence' for quarantines leads wave of virus monitoring

#183

Post by notRobot »

robocat wrote: post #18
notRobot wrote: post #4

> The system monitors phone signals to alert police and local officials if those in home quarantine move away from their address or turn off their phones. Jyan said authorities will contact or visit those who trigger an alert within 15 minutes. > Officials also call twice a day to ensure people don’t avoid tracking by leaving their phones at home. I'd hate this so much. I get why they feel it's necessary, I do. But I…

> other non-first-world countries Taiwan has been first world since the 1950’s (just to clarify to others reading the thread).

Ah, yeah. Not sure why I put "other" in there.

Re: Taiwan's new 'electronic fence' for quarantines leads wave of virus monitoring

#184

Post by philliphaydon »

jlokier wrote: post #153
philliphaydon wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not at all. You still need to renew your PR status over time. It's only permanent in the sense that if you are free to live in the country without needing to be sponsored by someone (company or individual). It's still a visa at the end of the day. If you're on an EP / WP which is then cancelled you have 30 days to get a new visa or leave the country. PR != Citizenship in any shape or form.

> PR != Citizenship in any shape or form. Regular administrative renewal, yes, but aside from that, I guess my complaint is that PR should resemble citizenship better, in matters of justice and in other matters. People live in PR status for an extraordinarily long time. Decades. Sometimes their whole life after obtaining it. Nobody should be have to live their lives in "second-class person, second-class justice" mode…

There is alot of negativity towards PR in Singapore because Citizens often feel that PR get too many benefits that they never feel the need or want to give up their own citizenship in favor of Singapore citizenship.

Alot of the benefits of PR have been taken away or reduced over the last 8 years that i've lived here.

Re: Taiwan's new 'electronic fence' for quarantines leads wave of virus monitoring

#185

Post by sailfast »

alkonaut wrote: post #47
sailfast wrote: post #35

Why would such a mechanism of control incentivize those that feel sick to report their symptoms? Why would one submit to control at this level? This sound similar to ankle-bracelet-level Parole / house arrest structures. In fact, I'd prefer that because it would only be providing a single source of sensor data to the government instead of possibly making my entire phone and location history accessible.

It works well enough if everyone considers the best of their society as more important than their own freedoms. So it's pretty easy to extrapolate where this might work and where it would be fruitless.

"The best of society as more important than their own freedoms" is a false choice here. I believe very strongly in working for the best of society which is why I bring up this very point. This kind of effect is also borne out in safety literature. If you want this to succeed to you have to remove consequences for reporting (and this means ensuring you are not overreacting to initial reporting or concerns)

There is surely a compromise option here as well where the government does not get the data and/or you do not give everything up in order to achieve this outcome?

Even a strict agreement about what specific data goes to the government, for how long, or having private companies or a purposely formed non-profit entity handle this would be better than handing your phone to your government.

I'm hardly a libertarian but I do think it's important to consider how best to protect hard won freedoms before running toward the expedient, safe-feeling choice.

Re: Taiwan's new 'electronic fence' for quarantines leads wave of virus monitoring

#186

Post by lern_too_spel »

chrisco255 wrote: post #165
lifeformed wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regarding the privacy aspect: I think it's a valid concern but this seems like the right pragmatic approach for this situation. I would be more comfortable if they made us use a tracking app on my phone instead, since the app has an express purpose and I can remove it afterwards. But the phone tracking method they are using instead is more robust and tried and true, so it makes since to use that. I guess the issue is…

I'm not doing it and tens of millions would balk at the Federal government tracking like this. Sorry, that is way past the slippery slope to tyranny.

Would you rather they put you inside a physical fence?

Re: Taiwan's new 'electronic fence' for quarantines leads wave of virus monitoring

#187

Post by imtringued »

onetimemanytime wrote: post #169
endymi0n wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A fascinating counterpoint to this is the German government, who not just as probably the first country did something distinctly different to quarantine (it's called contact prohibition and you can go anywhere you like as long as you don't meet with more than one person not from your household), but also rejected mass cell phone surveillance plans by a large margin. People here are mostly calm, cautious and despite a…

>> People here are mostly calm, cautious and despite a few outliers have largely high compliance rates from everything I see on the streets. Shouldn't the virus spread little by little so people gain immunity and the hospitals can manage the number of patients? I doubt we can continue this shutdown for 12-18 months (vaccine) and who knows if meds cure it.

It is possible that immunity doesn't last forever. There could be a second wave in the future.

Re: Taiwan's new 'electronic fence' for quarantines leads wave of virus monitoring

#188

Post by jb775 »

knolax wrote: post #179
jb775 wrote: post #138

> the system has drawn few [privacy] complaints in Taiwan Yeah until after the coronavirus craziness is over and the (now tested) system is used by China to round up dissenters

You know this is an article about Taiwan right?

Look up the history of Taiwan and China.

Re: Taiwan's new 'electronic fence' for quarantines leads wave of virus monitoring

#189

Post by chrisco255 »

lern_too_spel wrote: post #186
chrisco255 wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not doing it and tens of millions would balk at the Federal government tracking like this. Sorry, that is way past the slippery slope to tyranny.

Would you rather they put you inside a physical fence?

No, I'd rather my Constitutional rights be respected. Individual liberty somehow made it through smallpox, malaria, polio, and AIDS without being destroyed and I see no reason why COVID-19 should be some exception to the rule. Privacy in the United States is a right, as deemed by the Supreme Court.

Re: Taiwan's new 'electronic fence' for quarantines leads wave of virus monitoring

#190

Post by jshevek »

jb775 wrote: post #188
knolax wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know this is an article about Taiwan right?

Look up the history of Taiwan and China.

Are you implying that China would hack the Taiwanese system and use the data to somehow identify dissenters within mainland China?
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