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Don’t bail out the cruise industry

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Re: Don’t bail out the cruise industry

#91

Post by icebraining »

jjeaff wrote: post #13
unwind wrote: post #3

I'm not from the US, but I don't even understand the basic premise. If these companies avoid paying taxes by not being registered/incorporated in the US, how could they possibly be eligible for help from the US government? That just seems like a contradiction, like a huge case of having your cake and eating it.

Carnival Cruises is headquartered in Miami. They register their ships in other countries for various reasons. One of which is taxes. But the company itself is based in the US.

Headquartered in Miami, but incorporated in Panama.

Re: Don’t bail out the cruise industry

#92

Post by chii »

nordsieck wrote: post #18
beojan wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bailing them out is OK, but it should be through the government buying equity in those companies (essentially partial or complete nationalization).

> Bailing them out is OK, but it should be through the government buying equity in those companies (essentially partial or complete nationalization). Additionally, I think the government should be buying equity at a steep discount - something reasonable but not disastrous like 67%.

> buying equity at a steep discount

the gov't "loans" should be the same as the amount of equity obtained. For example, if the book value of the company is $100 , and the debt is $80 (so they need a loan of $80 to cover their debts), then the bailout will dilute all existing shareholders 80%.

Re: Don’t bail out the cruise industry

#93

Post by [deleted] »

ced wrote: post #60
Reason077 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Airlines also pollute and dodge taxes. But love them or hate them, it's hard to argue that airlines don't play a critical role. The broader economy would suffer badly if they were to fail. Cruise ships, however, do not. They are purely recreational and the economy would not fall apart if they were to go. They also share some of the blame for spreading Covid-19 in the first place!

it's hard to argue that airlines don't play a critical role. What critical industry will suffer if air travel suddenly becomes much more rare?

[deleted]

Re: Don’t bail out the cruise industry

#94

Post by chii »

RivieraKid wrote: post #62

Why do bailouts at all instead of letting them go bankrupt? Bankruptcy doesn't mean that people lose their jobs, it means that investors / lenders lose money.

bankruptcy does mean the people who worked there would lose their jobs. They will have to be re-employed, if the new buyer of the assets sold to cover the debts, decides to continue running a cruise liner. This certainly takes some time, and in the interim, all the employees will be fired (or at least, not paid).

If the gov't bails out the cruise liners, they may be able to force them to continue paying the employees in the intrim, and so "save" them from being unemployed and "save" welfare. The gov't can also end up owning equity in the business (which is not a bad thing - it's basically extra income for the state/treasury in the future).

Re: Don’t bail out the cruise industry

#95

Post by pjc50 »

ransom1538 wrote: post #56
ummwhat wrote: post #24

Better idea. They want a bailout? Sure. Turn all your ships to hospital ships for the next year. You won't miss them anyway. One of these ships is basically a 10 floor high city block that can sustain itself off grid for over two weeks. Surely we have a good use for that.

"Turn all your ships to hospital ships" Dear God no. Please don't create a covid19 death ship. Covid19 has proven to be a ruthless killer on recycled air systems. It would be impossible to screen for the virus - it would certainly find it's way on board.

In that case, the best use might be the "isolate mild cases" approach: everyone who tests positive goes on the ship, even (especially) if they don't have symptoms. If they deteriorate to severe, move them to a real hospital. This has been a big part of the Wuhan campaign.

Re: Don’t bail out the cruise industry

#96

Post by alkonaut »

lmm wrote: post #59
alkonaut wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Few people fly in and flood the streets of tourist hotspot cities for just a couple of hours and then disappear again without spending any money on hotels, and often not even restaurants. You can do that as a plane tourist too, but it's far less common. As soon as you stay even one night you are NOT like cruise tourists. You probably had at least one dinner and one hotel stay. Good tourist.

Why are the hotels a worthy way to spend the money? They push up the house prices for those who actually live there. Someone who isn't taking up a bed that a local could sleep in is being a better tourist IMO.

Yours is an argument against tourism. Sure a lot of people dislike tourism but it’s a major source of income in many places where there are few other industries. When people pay local businesses then at least money stays where they are spent, helping locals who don’t work in the tourist industry by providing funding for services etc. Thats why hotels and restaurants are a good way to spend money.

Cruise tourism usually pays very little to local business but the crowds and pollution is there anyway.

Re: Don’t bail out the cruise industry

#97

Post by michaelt »

lmm wrote: post #59
alkonaut wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Few people fly in and flood the streets of tourist hotspot cities for just a couple of hours and then disappear again without spending any money on hotels, and often not even restaurants. You can do that as a plane tourist too, but it's far less common. As soon as you stay even one night you are NOT like cruise tourists. You probably had at least one dinner and one hotel stay. Good tourist.

Why are the hotels a worthy way to spend the money? They push up the house prices for those who actually live there. Someone who isn't taking up a bed that a local could sleep in is being a better tourist IMO.

If the aim of supporting tourism is to "bring money into the local economy" then hotel rooms are one of the biggest ticket items when booking a holiday. Almost always the biggest when you ignore flights, which don't contribute directly to the local economy anyway.

Re: Don’t bail out the cruise industry

#98

Post by jacobush »

ornornor wrote: post #64
edejong wrote: post #14

The cruise industry is one of the most polluting and damaging industries in the world. It ruins cities worldwide. Their ships are petri-dishes for disease, spreading it directly into our vital cities. They are blocking perfect vistas of the sea. They are ruining local sea life and are spreading non-native species. Their exhaust fumes are extremely detrimental to local air quality in cities. The swarms of tourists are…

You also forget to mention the magic pipes that let ships dump water polluted with oil directly into the sea so they don’t have to pay at ports for proper disposal. Outlaw ocean is an eye opening book (and a great read) about how lawless the sea is, how slavery is still very very real out there, and how it’s virtually impossible to keep eating fish once you know what’s going on (both in terms of human trafficking and…

I find it strange that ships mix water runoff, antifreeze, hydraulic oil, engine oil seepage etc etc into a huge big mixed bilge tank and then try to separate it with an oil separator.

Strange.

Re: Don’t bail out the cruise industry

#99

Post by christophilus »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #47
edejong wrote: post #14

The cruise industry is one of the most polluting and damaging industries in the world. It ruins cities worldwide. Their ships are petri-dishes for disease, spreading it directly into our vital cities. They are blocking perfect vistas of the sea. They are ruining local sea life and are spreading non-native species. Their exhaust fumes are extremely detrimental to local air quality in cities. The swarms of tourists are…

They're likely not going to go bust though; they have a fuckton of money, at worst the ships are going to be docked for a while until this blows over. They won't make money, but they're not going to go bust. I think this is a major problem with a lot of businesses; they consider time not spent earning money as loss, instead of just a period with less income. And I think it's the responsibility of ALL businesses to ke…

I’ve looked at their finances. A few very well may go bust. It’s incredible how many publicly traded companies are living paycheck to paycheck.

I don’t like the idea of bailing out debt-laden, mismanaged companies. Let them go into bankruptcy and let a more competent group of people buy them and run them. This is doubly true for Boeing. Get those monkeys out of the executive positions.

Re: Don’t bail out the cruise industry

#100

Post by Donald »

pjc50 wrote: post #95
ransom1538 wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Turn all your ships to hospital ships" Dear God no. Please don't create a covid19 death ship. Covid19 has proven to be a ruthless killer on recycled air systems. It would be impossible to screen for the virus - it would certainly find it's way on board.

In that case, the best use might be the "isolate mild cases" approach: everyone who tests positive goes on the ship, even (especially) if they don't have symptoms. If they deteriorate to severe, move them to a real hospital. This has been a big part of the Wuhan campaign.

Repeated exposure makes covid-19 cases worse.
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