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The Virus Can Be Stopped, but Only with Harsh Steps, Experts Say

nytimes.com

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Re: The Virus Can Be Stopped, but Only with Harsh Steps, Experts Say

#141

Post by boomdiada »

jkachmar wrote: post #136
aaron695 wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a well thought out insightful comment. The current downvotes and comments against it say a lot about HN and why we really can't tackle this virus. We can't even take on another species attacking human kind logically.

The author’s rhetoric is likely the cause of the downvotes, in particular focusing explicitly on “undocumented immigrants” when there seems to be no evidence that this group of people presents any greater (or lesser) risk than other groups that share their socioeconomic or demographic status. To contrast with your interpretation, I found the author’s comment to be unnecessarily divisive. Consider, for example, that A…

I mentioned this in a sibling comment.

I don't believe that this interpretation of OP is very charitable.

Regardless of the politics of undocumented immigrants, you have to account for how you are going to service these people. This group is currently living outside of the system.

To combat COVID19, we need them to participate inside of this system.

This isn't actually a bad thing to point out and it SUPPORTS the "undocumented immigrants" cause.

We can't keep pretending that they don't live IN this society.

Acknowledging that as it stands, they can't economically or politically participate in the system is not the same thing as advocating for them to be removed or punished.

If anything, it acknowledges that the current system doesn't work and needs to be re-worked to include this group of people.

Again, 10M people are unable to participate in a productive treatment or cure. This will ensure that we all fail to contain and mitigate this disaster.

Re: The Virus Can Be Stopped, but Only with Harsh Steps, Experts Say

#142

Post by Bombthecat »

aww_dang wrote: post #102
asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

WHO seems to believe. We would have a prior expectation that a strong lockdown would reduce transmission to below 1 per case. China has a strong lockdown. And it would be extremely hard for them to hide it plus massive downside risk and limited upside. So why don't you believe them.

"The reason for the WHO’s failure to properly act to contain the outbreak, and its repeated issuing of inaccurate and bad advice, is not merely the result of incompetence. Rather, the malfeasance is the direct result of the CCP deliberately buying out WHO’s leadership, with tragic consequences." https://thefederalist.com/2020/03/17/u-s-funds-world-health-... "The coronavirus crisis is raising questions over China's r…

WHO is mostly based in the us. Why should anyone be surprised?

Re: The Virus Can Be Stopped, but Only with Harsh Steps, Experts Say

#143

Post by mardifoufs »

asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #107
aww_dang wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The reason for the WHO’s failure to properly act to contain the outbreak, and its repeated issuing of inaccurate and bad advice, is not merely the result of incompetence. Rather, the malfeasance is the direct result of the CCP deliberately buying out WHO’s leadership, with tragic consequences." https://thefederalist.com/2020/03/17/u-s-funds-world-health-... "The coronavirus crisis is raising questions over China's r…

Yeah I'm not really buying what these articles are selling. The world had plenty of time to act and opted not to. This all seems more like an attempt to avoid blame than a credible analysis of the situation. It's a far better story for the western politicians that the evil Chinese didn't give enough warning than to acknowledge that plenty of warning was given and none was heeded until the developing crisis was alread…

It's hard to prepare when the WHO [0] was still telling that the virus probably doesn't spread between humans as little as 2 months ago. Of course the western governments should've reacted earlier, but the margin wasn't that big. The WHO were the observers on the ground and they chose to play down the whole thing to ease china.

[0] https://twitter.com/WHO/status/1217043229427761152?s=20

Re: The Virus Can Be Stopped, but Only with Harsh Steps, Experts Say

#144

Post by Daishiman »

m23khan wrote: post #94

There is one harsh reality I see in all this: World screwed itself by being over reliant on China. At least Canada did. Big time. Big percentage of things here in Canada is 'Made in China' - yup, you name it -- Masks, gloves, and items such as syringes, etc. heck even plastic cutlery and tooth brushes are made in China. Now that Chinese economy got shutdown and people in Canada went into panic mode, we have severely…

That's really not an issue at all.

Asian countries that managed this crisis correctly took steps to prepare, which mostly means having quick access to testing, and stockpiling materials.

Any Western government had in its power the ability to invoke urgent measure to redirect production for face masks and equipment. That equipment could have been bought beforehand if the governments had listened to the advice of its own experts.

Re: The Virus Can Be Stopped, but Only with Harsh Steps, Experts Say

#145

Post by malandrew »

aww_dang wrote: post #113
asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To the extent the CCP covered this up in Nov/Dec, it was definitely an evil act. However, I don't think that should very much move the needle on what we believe about the state on the ground in China today. The country is not so closed off that they could hide ongoing mass COVID infections. The WHO's agreement is only one of the several datapoints I mentioned.

Economic, pollution data is similarly manipulated. Local officials have incentives to misreport this data. Why should infection data be any different? The current CCP narrative is that all new cases are imported. Do you find this credible?

Not in the least. That said, having lived and worked in China, any official at the local level would be prudent find a way to attribute all local cases to being imported and not local transmission. This whole debacle will end up being the CCP's Chernobyl moment; systemic failure due to CYA mentality because the consequences from the state apparatus are perceived as the worst possible personal outcome.

Re: The Virus Can Be Stopped, but Only with Harsh Steps, Experts Say

#146

Post by aianus »

asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #107
aww_dang wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The reason for the WHO’s failure to properly act to contain the outbreak, and its repeated issuing of inaccurate and bad advice, is not merely the result of incompetence. Rather, the malfeasance is the direct result of the CCP deliberately buying out WHO’s leadership, with tragic consequences." https://thefederalist.com/2020/03/17/u-s-funds-world-health-... "The coronavirus crisis is raising questions over China's r…

Yeah I'm not really buying what these articles are selling. The world had plenty of time to act and opted not to. This all seems more like an attempt to avoid blame than a credible analysis of the situation. It's a far better story for the western politicians that the evil Chinese didn't give enough warning than to acknowledge that plenty of warning was given and none was heeded until the developing crisis was alread…

The WHO continually and explicitly encouraged countries to leave borders open at a time when all cases (outside of Hubei) were imported from abroad. Since almost all cases at the time were Chinese, I don’t see any reason for this advice other than appeasing the PRC.

Even today the vast majority of new cases in my country (Canada) are directly related to international travel. It seems obvious that all of this could have been avoided with earlier border closures.

I blame the WHO for mishandling this pandemic because they were the only international agency that could have coordinated multilateral border closures in a diplomatic way but chose not to in order to make China happy.

Re: The Virus Can Be Stopped, but Only with Harsh Steps, Experts Say

#147

Post by netvarun »

eloisant wrote: post #116
glandium wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I saw today on Japanese TV that China reportedly doesn't count asymptomatic people who tested positive as of the 14th of February, and that there might be 40k+ of those.

France: - never tested asymptotic people - in the first weeks, didn't tested anyone unless they had symptoms AND came back from China or Italy - now only takes care of serious cases, which means that if you have mild symptoms you don't get tested Official numbers a way, way lower than reality.

I had to do a double take - I'm pretty sure you meant 'asymptomatic' :)

Re: The Virus Can Be Stopped, but Only with Harsh Steps, Experts Say

#149

Post by jkachmar »

boomdiada wrote: post #141
jkachmar wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The author’s rhetoric is likely the cause of the downvotes, in particular focusing explicitly on “undocumented immigrants” when there seems to be no evidence that this group of people presents any greater (or lesser) risk than other groups that share their socioeconomic or demographic status. To contrast with your interpretation, I found the author’s comment to be unnecessarily divisive. Consider, for example, that A…

I mentioned this in a sibling comment. I don't believe that this interpretation of OP is very charitable. Regardless of the politics of undocumented immigrants, you have to account for how you are going to service these people. This group is currently living outside of the system. To combat COVID19, we need them to participate inside of this system. This isn't actually a bad thing to point out and it SUPPORTS the "un…

> This group is currently living outside of the system.

I think that the point that I’m trying to make (as are others in this thread) is that there are many more people who are “living outside the system” when we consider “the system” to be those who can get treatment and afford to distance themselves from others (i.e. stay home from work or work remote).

Expressing concern about the problem that undocumented immigrants pose is such a massively premature thing to do that I find it impossible to read the original comment in good faith.

> 10M people are unable to participate in a productive treatment or cure.

Many more than 10M people are going to be unable or unwilling to participate in treatment or inoculation due to the structure of the American healthcare system.

Raising the concern about undocumented immigrants inhibiting our recovery effort is naïvely misinformed at best and a dogwhistle for encouraging discriminatory behavior at worst.

Re: The Virus Can Be Stopped, but Only with Harsh Steps, Experts Say

#150

Post by triceratops »

selimthegrim wrote: post #132
aquaticsunset wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, during a global pandemic crisis like this, undocumented immigrants are the problem. I bet every single one of those people in Disney World last week, partygoers in New Orleans, and spring break beach students were overwhelmingly not undocumented immigrants. Fear mongering a disenfranchised population will get you nowhere.

As a resident of New Orleans I can categorically tell you 99% of those assholes in the pictures on Bourbon St were tourists taking advantage of cheap tickets

I figured 99% of the people on Bourbon St (apart from the workers) were always tourists. I couldn't see myself ever wanting to go there if I lived in New Orleans.
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