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Traffic and Pollution Plummet as U.S. Cities Shut Down

nytimes.com

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Re: Traffic and Pollution Plummet as U.S. Cities Shut Down

#151

Post by Reedx »

cat199 wrote: post #94
gdubs wrote: post #4

I’ve been thinking a lot about the next looming crisis: Climate Change. On Bloomberg radio a few weeks ago, an analyst / money manager was talking about how his firm was looking at satellite imagery of pollution in China to measure their economic recovery. More pollution == “better”. Something is clearly unsustainable with that formula. Like the virus, the longer we wait to take action, the more expensive it is and t…

> democratic values devils advocate, but if it ends up that democratic states don't handle the response as well as authoritarian ones out of differing views of individual rights, this isn't necessarily a 'win' for the democratic side of the fence

Fortunately South Korea makes a great case that you can handle this without an authoritarian approach. At this point I think it's likely they become the model. Maybe a mix of Singapore and Japan as well.

Re: Traffic and Pollution Plummet as U.S. Cities Shut Down

#152

Post by AnthonyMouse »

kube-system wrote: post #121
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Technology must be the answer here. This doesn't require new technology. We know how to make electric cars, electric heat pumps, solar panels, nuclear reactors etc. This is all existing technology. But take a look at oil prices right now. That's what happens if you start to reduce world demand for oil, and that's the real problem. All we need from governments is to put a sufficient tax on carbon that keeps carbon m…

> This doesn't require new technology. We know how to make electric cars, electric heat pumps, solar panels, nuclear reactors etc. This is all existing technology. We have some of the problems solved. While batteries are energy dense enough to support passenger cars, there's still a lot of progress to be made before the tech can meet the demands of shipping/bulk-cargo/intercontinental transport. For example, batterie…

Who says you have to use batteries for everything? For trains you electrify the tracks. For container ships you install a nuclear reactor on the ship the same as a submarine, or burn wood pellets or some other biomass in a steam boiler like the old days. For aircraft you use biofuels, or just buy offsets if that's cheaper (and aircraft are only a small percentage of fossil fuel use).

This doesn't require alien technology, it just requires carbon to be priced so that it isn't artificially cheaper than existing alternatives.

Re: Traffic and Pollution Plummet as U.S. Cities Shut Down

#153

Post by vinniejames »

leetcrew wrote: post #80
briefcomment wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one's disputing that. It makes sense that if people who can work home do so, the environment will be better than if they don't work from home. Also, many people who cannot work from home at the moment are still driving to work (restaurant workers, grocery store workers, other retail). This current situation isn't too far off from a state where just those who can work from home do so, and the rest drive to work. An…

> This current situation isn't too far off from a state where just those who can work from home do so, and the rest drive to work. it seems pretty very far off to me. I'm having a nice time working from home, but all my friends that don't work at a grocery store (restaurant workers, tutors, social workers, theater techs) are sitting at home not getting paid. I'm not sure how to estimate what fraction of the workforce…

I would argue a strong case that tutors and social workers don't need to commute to work. What part of their job can't be done online?

Re: Traffic and Pollution Plummet as U.S. Cities Shut Down

#154

Post by samatman »

new2628 wrote: post #84
ich_bin_abe wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. Actually during Christmas break, me and my friends in Michigan drive A LOT!! For breakfast coffees, then casual hangouts at places like zoos/museums, then for lunch, then for coffee again, then for dinner, all of us in separate cars. Of. course that's not everyday, but it's many days. When we're back home from college, it's nice to see the friends from back home, and often it will involve all of us driving separ…

Why don't you just walk around instead of all that driving?

Around Christmas in Michigan, the temperature hovers around 0C.

The person you're replying to is describing about 30 miles of travel, at a rough estimate.

So, there's your answer.

Re: Traffic and Pollution Plummet as U.S. Cities Shut Down

#155

Post by vinniejames »

adrianN wrote: post #79
vinniejames wrote: post #47

Looks like we've found the solution to global warning. All it took was a government mandate that folks who can and should be working from home do so. Hopefully we all have the common sense to continue this long term, mother earth deserves a break

I hope you realize that working from home when possible is great for the climate but in no way solves the global warming problem. We need to go carbon negative in the next few decades. You don't achieve that by having some fraction of the office workers work from home.

You do by having the majority of the workforce doing so. No one said this would happen overnight

Re: Traffic and Pollution Plummet as U.S. Cities Shut Down

#156

Post by vinniejames »

wool_gather wrote: post #103
vinniejames wrote: post #47

Looks like we've found the solution to global warning. All it took was a government mandate that folks who can and should be working from home do so. Hopefully we all have the common sense to continue this long term, mother earth deserves a break

This is not a slam dunk by any means. Plenty of the working from home that's happening right now is not sustainable -- it's not like everyone has an extra room (or two!) in their house that they can just switch over to being an office for 8 hours a day. This also distributes heating/cooling/electrical usage in a way that I would imagine is less efficient overall.

Why exactly do you need two extra rooms to put a laptop on a table?

Re: Traffic and Pollution Plummet as U.S. Cities Shut Down

#157

Post by rpedela »

vinniejames wrote: post #153
leetcrew wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This current situation isn't too far off from a state where just those who can work from home do so, and the rest drive to work. it seems pretty very far off to me. I'm having a nice time working from home, but all my friends that don't work at a grocery store (restaurant workers, tutors, social workers, theater techs) are sitting at home not getting paid. I'm not sure how to estimate what fraction of the workforce…

I would argue a strong case that tutors and social workers don't need to commute to work. What part of their job can't be done online?

Face-to-face interaction is very important to both roles. You can certainly offload some, maybe most, academic instruction to online, but not the tutoring part.

Re: Traffic and Pollution Plummet as U.S. Cities Shut Down

#158

Post by dgellow »

iso1210 wrote: post #97
dgellow wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends how things play out once we are done with the virus crisis. It's possible that we will see crazy level of production and consumption to compensate the down time, resulting in way more carbon emissions. And governments will surely want to boost their economy at any cost, that could be quite bad for ecological policies. Definitely not what I personally want, I'm in Europe and hope that EU members use the curren…

> EU members use the current situation as a way to work closer together EU members are shouting "Every country for itself" Pretty similar to the US states actually, other than US states can't close borders (but can enforce no travelling, which is basically a superset of closed borders)

Not really, no. They closed their borders but there is some level of collaboration at the moment, for example german states at the French border (e.g: Baden-Würtemberg) started to take in charge French patients who cannot be handled by the French healthcare system.

Comparing the US and the EU doesn’t often make sense IMHO, they have different and incompatible institutions with different goals.

In any case, what is happening now doesn’t define how countries will react after the crisis.

Re: Traffic and Pollution Plummet as U.S. Cities Shut Down

#159

Post by throwaway894345 »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #137
throwaway894345 wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If class warfare is weak, then it probably just annoys the upper class and makes them less likely to cooperate. If you have some violent “glorious revolution” in mind, then you very probably wreck the economy and damn a huge portion of the lower class to extreme poverty, including the deaths of tens of millions and you also probably create a new, even narrower, more corrupt class of oligarchs with even more control o…

That makes it sound like all outcomes are similar, whether through apathy of doing nothing or through violent revolution, no? We’re not quite at rock bottom but it appears in sight, regarding climate change. The economy is a bit in a wreck already as well.

All outcomes aren’t similar, they are proportionately worse the more violent “class warfare” becomes. The best path forward is almost certainly (in my view) incremental cooperative progress towards a stronger social safety net. Nothing good is going to happen over night.

Re: Traffic and Pollution Plummet as U.S. Cities Shut Down

#160

Post by bshacklett »

Apocryphon wrote: post #144
bshacklett wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Before anyone gets on a soapbox, here's a quick reminder that if you're reading this post, there's a good chance that you're part of that top 10%.

Those in the developed west who get on those soapboxes probably already fall into crunchy green subcultures anyway and are cognizant of their own carbon footprints. And the active HN reader, whether they fall into that camp or not, are unlikely to be in the actual part of that global 10% who dictate industrial policy that have far-reaching effects on the rest of the world.

Our buying habits have a drastic effect on the rest of the world. Just look at Avocados and Chocolate for two ridiculous examples. The average American's love for both has had a huge impact on the lives of those who farm as well as deforestation in affected areas.

Just having our preferred foods year-round can completely change the lives of others. Just thinj about the effect that owning things like cars and houses has on the rest of the world.

Don't kid yourself. Like it or not you and I are part of the problem.

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