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Traffic and Pollution Plummet as U.S. Cities Shut Down

nytimes.com

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Re: Traffic and Pollution Plummet as U.S. Cities Shut Down

#21

Post by gwright »

deevolution wrote: post #19

So far, the COVID-19 pandemic is showing us that People, rather than Consumption, matter most. We need consumption to support people, yes, but Economic expansion and increasing consumption can't go on infinitely. Most people shouldn't be able to afford a car - they should be taking public transit - but they can obtain one because they take out loans. The american fracking industry shouldn't exist, but it can because…

Drawing conclusions from this temporary pause in economic activity seems premature.

Re: Traffic and Pollution Plummet as U.S. Cities Shut Down

#22

Post by briefcomment »

amelius wrote: post #17
gdubs wrote: post #4

I’ve been thinking a lot about the next looming crisis: Climate Change. On Bloomberg radio a few weeks ago, an analyst / money manager was talking about how his firm was looking at satellite imagery of pollution in China to measure their economic recovery. More pollution == “better”. Something is clearly unsustainable with that formula. Like the virus, the longer we wait to take action, the more expensive it is and t…

> The world has pressed the pause button for a moment. Well so far it has only been 1 or 2 weeks, comparable to the annual X-mas break in duration. So I'm curious: are the effects really significantly different here so far?

I wouldn't think Christmas is similar to these past two weeks in terms of volume driven. Many people still drive to work during Christmas, and some even drive more, to get to relatives' places. Not to mention, air travel probably rises significantly. Right now, car travel and air travel are low.

Re: Traffic and Pollution Plummet as U.S. Cities Shut Down

#24

Post by alharith »

gdubs wrote: post #4

I’ve been thinking a lot about the next looming crisis: Climate Change. On Bloomberg radio a few weeks ago, an analyst / money manager was talking about how his firm was looking at satellite imagery of pollution in China to measure their economic recovery. More pollution == “better”. Something is clearly unsustainable with that formula. Like the virus, the longer we wait to take action, the more expensive it is and t…

It's just so interesting how the same event could lead people to such drastically different observations and take aways.

For instance,

> the importance of global cooperation,

For me, and many others, this pandemic has highlighted the need to be less centralized and dependent on foreign nations, especially with respects to China. Relying on them for our global pharmaceutical supply chain, for instance, seems like a terrible decision to have had made now.

> democratic values

You would be excluding the majority of the world's population, who aren't under a system of primarily democratic values.

> the more expensive it is and the narrower our options become.

That is, until a new or emerging technology opens up a plethora of new options! Have some optimism! Because what is clear to me is, even with this current shutdown which has caused the lower pollution is, we cannot afford the cost it takes to do the kinds of drastic, immediate changes needed to lower the C02 emissions to what the majority of climatologists say it needs to be. Technology must be the answer here.

Re: Traffic and Pollution Plummet as U.S. Cities Shut Down

#25

Post by jagged-chisel »

gdubs wrote: post #4

I’ve been thinking a lot about the next looming crisis: Climate Change. On Bloomberg radio a few weeks ago, an analyst / money manager was talking about how his firm was looking at satellite imagery of pollution in China to measure their economic recovery. More pollution == “better”. Something is clearly unsustainable with that formula. Like the virus, the longer we wait to take action, the more expensive it is and t…

> More pollution == “better”

I'm hoping this is just a temporary indicator giving analysts a hint as to where to focus their attention, and not a lone metric plugged into whatever model they're using.

Re: Traffic and Pollution Plummet as U.S. Cities Shut Down

#26

Post by losteric »

lol768 wrote: post #20
deevolution wrote: post #19

So far, the COVID-19 pandemic is showing us that People, rather than Consumption, matter most. We need consumption to support people, yes, but Economic expansion and increasing consumption can't go on infinitely. Most people shouldn't be able to afford a car - they should be taking public transit - but they can obtain one because they take out loans. The american fracking industry shouldn't exist, but it can because…

> So many people and businesses are able to live beyond their means because of access to credit. If we eliminate the ability to create credit, then consumption would drop to a sustainable level and pollution would also drop and we would see an end to wasteful businesses, products, processes, and ways of life. What about housing? A mortgage is going to be the only way for a lot of people to ever afford their own home.

Well, to question your premise - Why is universal home ownership desirable or necessary?

Re: Traffic and Pollution Plummet as U.S. Cities Shut Down

#27

Post by eyegor »

lol768 wrote: post #20
deevolution wrote: post #19

So far, the COVID-19 pandemic is showing us that People, rather than Consumption, matter most. We need consumption to support people, yes, but Economic expansion and increasing consumption can't go on infinitely. Most people shouldn't be able to afford a car - they should be taking public transit - but they can obtain one because they take out loans. The american fracking industry shouldn't exist, but it can because…

> So many people and businesses are able to live beyond their means because of access to credit. If we eliminate the ability to create credit, then consumption would drop to a sustainable level and pollution would also drop and we would see an end to wasteful businesses, products, processes, and ways of life. What about housing? A mortgage is going to be the only way for a lot of people to ever afford their own home.

Or education? Especially in the US, it's unreasonable to pay for most universities without loans.

Re: Traffic and Pollution Plummet as U.S. Cities Shut Down

#28

Post by Sileni »

deevolution wrote: post #19

So far, the COVID-19 pandemic is showing us that People, rather than Consumption, matter most. We need consumption to support people, yes, but Economic expansion and increasing consumption can't go on infinitely. Most people shouldn't be able to afford a car - they should be taking public transit - but they can obtain one because they take out loans. The american fracking industry shouldn't exist, but it can because…

>Most people shouldn't be able to afford a car - they should be taking public transit - but they can obtain one because they take out loans.

A car isn't a "want" for most people outside of major US cities. It's a need. Public transport has never been effective in most of the US. Hell, I'd have to cross an interstate on foot in order to reach work. How many weeks do you estimate it'd take me to get killed? Should I be taking that risk because some politician decided my life was less valuable than their golfing buddy getting to work 5 minutes quicker?

Re: Traffic and Pollution Plummet as U.S. Cities Shut Down

#30

Post by Sileni »

losteric wrote: post #26
lol768 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So many people and businesses are able to live beyond their means because of access to credit. If we eliminate the ability to create credit, then consumption would drop to a sustainable level and pollution would also drop and we would see an end to wasteful businesses, products, processes, and ways of life. What about housing? A mortgage is going to be the only way for a lot of people to ever afford their own home.

Well, to question your premise - Why is universal home ownership desirable or necessary?

It's either (near) universal or communal. Anything in between gives elites so much power over the less advantaged that you see a stratification of society similar to, well, what we're seeing now. Here's a quarantine project for you: build a model that lets you push around the %age of renters vs land owners. Virtually any model that contains a significant number of renters will eventually have one land owner and many renters, unless you see significant economic disasters in the model.
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