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Total Cost of Her Covid-19 Treatment: $34,927.43

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Re: Total Cost of Her Covid-19 Treatment: $34,927.43

#101

Post by leftyted »

GordonS wrote: post #99
leftyted wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 30,000 US troops stationed in Germany and the existence of NATO are significant factors in European countries spending so little on defense.

This is a total fallacy - those troops being stationed in Germany does not mean Germany would station 30k of their own should the US troops leave.

I didn't say that. I said that, without the US presence in Germany and without NATO, Germany would have to spend more on defense.

I don't understand how anyone can disagree with that; it's obvious. The German government certainly knows it, which is they allow the Americans to keep 30,000 troops in their country.

A lot of people on HN have an extreme anti-US bias. It's pretty tiring.

Re: Total Cost of Her Covid-19 Treatment: $34,927.43

#102

Post by GordonS »

leftyted wrote: post #101
GordonS wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a total fallacy - those troops being stationed in Germany does not mean Germany would station 30k of their own should the US troops leave.

I didn't say that. I said that, without the US presence in Germany and without NATO, Germany would have to spend more on defense. I don't understand how anyone can disagree with that; it's obvious. The German government certainly knows it, which is they allow the Americans to keep 30,000 troops in their country. A lot of people on HN have an extreme anti-US bias. It's pretty tiring.

My comment didn't display any anti-US sentiment, so your strawman falls down.

> I don't understand how anyone can disagree with that; it's obvious

No, it's far from obvious.

Those troops are now there to serve US interests, not German ones, primarily using Germany as a logistics base for deployments/missions in the Middle East.

Indeed, there's an argument to made that their spend could even reduce, since they might become less of a target.

Re: Total Cost of Her Covid-19 Treatment: $34,927.43

#103

Post by JohnTHaller »

I can't wait until my $5,000 a year insurance with a $7,000 deductible here in the US comes up with a reason why it shouldn't be covered.

Fun Related Fact: I donated a kidney to my Dad in 2000. The Affordable Care Act is what finally made it so it was no longer a "pre-existing condition" that insurance companies could use to deny me coverage for anything semi-related to kidneys.

Re: Total Cost of Her Covid-19 Treatment: $34,927.43

#104

Post by leftyted »

GordonS wrote: post #102
leftyted wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't say that. I said that, without the US presence in Germany and without NATO, Germany would have to spend more on defense. I don't understand how anyone can disagree with that; it's obvious. The German government certainly knows it, which is they allow the Americans to keep 30,000 troops in their country. A lot of people on HN have an extreme anti-US bias. It's pretty tiring.

My comment didn't display any anti-US sentiment, so your strawman falls down. > I don't understand how anyone can disagree with that; it's obvious No, it's far from obvious. Those troops are now there to serve US interests, not German ones, primarily using Germany as a logistics base for deployments/missions in the Middle East. Indeed, there's an argument to made that their spend could even reduce, since they might b…

It's obvious to people without extreme anti-American bias.

Also, maybe don't throw out terms like "strawman" when you bizarrely transfigured my innocuous comment:

> The 30,000 US troops stationed in Germany and the existence of NATO are significant factors in European countries spending so little on defense.

into:

> This is a total fallacy - those troops being stationed in Germany does not mean Germany would station 30k of their own should the US troops leave.

edit - It should be clear to anyone reasonable that the way you interpreted my original post evinces anti-American bias. What you don't seem to understand is that US interests and Germany interests have significant overlap. The idea that Germany doesn't benefit from pax Americana is absurd.

That doesn't mean that the US always uses its power responsibility, it just means that things are more complicated than the caricature of US foreign policy that often shows up on this website.

Re: Total Cost of Her Covid-19 Treatment: $34,927.43

#105

Post by tinus_hn »

baddox wrote: post #56
throwqwerty wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you realize this is literally only as of the ACA in 2010? and if the trump administration has its way (there's a supreme court case on the docket to completely kill ACA) we're going back to that?

Yes, the past was different than the present.

But what about the future? :)

Re: Total Cost of Her Covid-19 Treatment: $34,927.43

#106

Post by Havoc »

afterburner wrote: post #34
Havoc wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Everyone with insurance gets insurer-negotiated "discounts" to around ~10% of the listed cost. That whole setup is downright cruel & evil. Pretty much guarantees the most vulnerable get fk'd.

But won't you be so proud when you sign up for a health plan! You can exclaim to everyone "well I did my due diligence and I signed up for a great plan! why didn't you??" Meanwhile people in non-US countries are thinking "I don't have to think about any of this shit, at all."

>Meanwhile people in non-US countries are thinking "I don't have to think about any of this shit, at all."

Yup. And if you opt to buy one they're far more impressive. e.g. the one I'm on has global coverage (except US lol) for like 1.5k a year.

The whole thing is just comical (Yes we'll totally cover you in Iraq...but USA you're on your own there)

Re: Total Cost of Her Covid-19 Treatment: $34,927.43

#107

Post by alexhutcheson »

Cyph0n wrote: post #52
alexhutcheson wrote: post #16

The face values on medical bills in the US are like a bizarre joke - to a first approximation, no one ever pays them. Everyone with insurance gets insurer-negotiated "discounts" to around ~10% of the listed cost. It's tougher for people without insurance - my understanding is that you can negotiate with the entity that sent you the bill to get significant reductions, but I don't have first-hand experience doing this.…

It depends on your deductible, though. If you’re on a HDHP, you could end up paying quite a bit more than 10% of the cost. But the expectation is that you “negotiate”, which is one the dumbest things I’ve ever heard of. Why can’t my insurance company do that? I already have a ton of stuff to handle, and now I have to worry about negotiating my health bills? It’s a joke.

Even on an HDHP, the discount you get by going through insurance is significant. For a recent bill, my insurance website shows:

    Total amount billed: $771
    Plan discount:       $699
    Plan paid:             $0 
    You may owe:          $73
Because I haven't hit my deductible yet, the plan didn't pay for anything, but I got their negotiated pricing, so I'm only paying ~9.5% of the "billed rate".

> But the expectation is that you “negotiate”, which is one the dumbest things I’ve ever heard of. Why can’t my insurance company do that?

If you have insurance, you're not expected to negotiate - the insurance company does that for you. That's the "plan discount" quoted above. You have to negotiate if you don't have insurance.

Not defending the system - I think billing is incomprehensible and hard to stay on top of. Just pointing out that you get significant benefits from being insured even if you never hit your deductible.

Re: Total Cost of Her Covid-19 Treatment: $34,927.43

#108

Post by GordonS »

leftyted wrote: post #104
GordonS wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My comment didn't display any anti-US sentiment, so your strawman falls down. > I don't understand how anyone can disagree with that; it's obvious No, it's far from obvious. Those troops are now there to serve US interests, not German ones, primarily using Germany as a logistics base for deployments/missions in the Middle East. Indeed, there's an argument to made that their spend could even reduce, since they might b…

It's obvious to people without extreme anti-American bias. Also, maybe don't throw out terms like "strawman" when you bizarrely transfigured my innocuous comment: > The 30,000 US troops stationed in Germany and the existence of NATO are significant factors in European countries spending so little on defense. into: > This is a total fallacy - those troops being stationed in Germany does not mean Germany would station…

Sorry, but I think you're seeing what you want to see.

I'm perfectly "reasonable", and it's rationale to question whether German military spend would increase just because some US troops leave.

I understand perfectly well that some US and German interests overlap, but certainly not all. It's also the case that the US does many things that there would be absolutely no appetite for in Germany (I'm not judging those actions here, just making a reasoned point).

Re: Total Cost of Her Covid-19 Treatment: $34,927.43

#109

Post by amalter »

leftyted wrote: post #104
GordonS wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My comment didn't display any anti-US sentiment, so your strawman falls down. > I don't understand how anyone can disagree with that; it's obvious No, it's far from obvious. Those troops are now there to serve US interests, not German ones, primarily using Germany as a logistics base for deployments/missions in the Middle East. Indeed, there's an argument to made that their spend could even reduce, since they might b…

It's obvious to people without extreme anti-American bias. Also, maybe don't throw out terms like "strawman" when you bizarrely transfigured my innocuous comment: > The 30,000 US troops stationed in Germany and the existence of NATO are significant factors in European countries spending so little on defense. into: > This is a total fallacy - those troops being stationed in Germany does not mean Germany would station…

I believe that your position was strong during the cold war. From the end of WWII until the dissolution of the Soviet Union, American troops and bombs were a significant deterrent to Soviet imperialism in Europe.

However, the world has significantly changed since December 1991. I agree with the grandparent that today the primary usage of the large US bases in Germany are for staging people and material to the middle east. I also think that it's a reasonable opinion that these wars (or their scale and length) were unnecessary. Is that opinion evidence of "anti-american bias"? I believe that is an unreasonable conclusion.

So - from the 50's to the 90's did the US "subsidize" European economies to some amount by providing common defense from the USSR? Sure. It also served US interests as the policy was to "fight over there" instead of in the US.

Since then, the US has spent upwards of $3T on the GWOT, while declining in every health statistic year over year.

If we're tossing around charges of "anti-american'ism" - I counter than anyone who wants to continue on with an unchanged healthcare system is "anti-american" - as in literally in favor of a system that causes more children to die at birth, for people to live shorter, less predictable and more brutal lives.

Re: Total Cost of Her Covid-19 Treatment: $34,927.43

#110

Post by Balgair »

Krokku wrote: post #8

You could buy 0.018 Tomahawk missiles for that or treat 54 people for every Tomahawk missile fired. All of the Tomahawk missiles fired since 2001 would have provided 119.000 people with free Corona treatment. I am thinking that countries with free healthcare care more about keeping their own people healthy than dropping missiles and misery on other countries people.

"Each Javelin round costs $80,000, and the idea that it's fired by a guy who doesn't make that in a year at a guy who doesn't make that in a lifetime is somehow so outrageous it almost makes the war seem winnable."

- Sebastian Junger

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