Locked-down lawyers warned Alexa is hearing confidential calls • Hacker News Board

Re: Locked-down lawyers warned Alexa is hearing confidential calls

#101

Post by Klinky » Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 4:20 PM UTC

pdkl95 wrote: post #75

Touche wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing in your pocket is always listening too.

The only things in my pocket are my wallet and keys. My phone[1] could probably be used for remote surveillance, but without a warrant, that's a crime. Note: intent and expectations matter. A cellphone by itself (without any type of "voice assistant" app or feature) is only intended to record audio when it's being used to make a call. Yes, malicious actors or buggy software could enable the microphone, but that's not…

You're trusting that the microphone is not listening, which is about on par with trusting any device that claims to only store stuff in a local buffer, except when commanded to talk to the cloud.

I think to your point, there is possibly more legal protection around wiretaps than voice assistants. However, how many apps have access to the microphone? Are these apps covered by the same protections as making a phone call using POTS?

Edit: I see you've linked that your phone is an old-school landline, which doesn't really help people understand the legalities around smartphones, which many feel are a requirement to daily life.

Re: Locked-down lawyers warned Alexa is hearing confidential calls

#102

Post by beatgammit » Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 4:22 PM UTC

wolco wrote: post #54

lima wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many Android phones have always-on "Ok Google" hotword detection that works exactly like the standalone devices. Source: Mine does, very useful!

No one who cares about privacy would turn that on.

Sure, and nobody who cares about privacy would own an always on smart home device from Amazon or Google. But you don't always know if one of those devices is listening, such a when going to a friend's house.

Re: Locked-down lawyers warned Alexa is hearing confidential calls

#103

Post by nikofeyn » Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 4:25 PM UTC

capableweb wrote: post #96

pdkl95 wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only things in my pocket are my wallet and keys. My phone[1] could probably be used for remote surveillance, but without a warrant, that's a crime. Note: intent and expectations matter. A cellphone by itself (without any type of "voice assistant" app or feature) is only intended to record audio when it's being used to make a call. Yes, malicious actors or buggy software could enable the microphone, but that's not…

> The only things in my pocket are my wallet and keys. My phone[1] could probably be used for remote surveillance, but without a warrant, that's a crime. Sure, a bit naive, but I digress. Even if it's illegal, it would be better if it was simply not possible in the first place. It's optionally having that functionality, rather than building solutions considering privacy in the first place. > without any type of "voic…

you have to give explicit permissions for those things. google assistant doesn't work on my phone because i never gave it permission to enable that feature.

Re: Locked-down lawyers warned Alexa is hearing confidential calls

#104

Post by masklinn » Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 4:27 PM UTC

Klinky wrote: post #101

pdkl95 wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only things in my pocket are my wallet and keys. My phone[1] could probably be used for remote surveillance, but without a warrant, that's a crime. Note: intent and expectations matter. A cellphone by itself (without any type of "voice assistant" app or feature) is only intended to record audio when it's being used to make a call. Yes, malicious actors or buggy software could enable the microphone, but that's not…

You're trusting that the microphone is not listening, which is about on par with trusting any device that claims to only store stuff in a local buffer, except when commanded to talk to the cloud. I think to your point, there is possibly more legal protection around wiretaps than voice assistants. However, how many apps have access to the microphone? Are these apps covered by the same protections as making a phone cal…

> You're trusting that the microphone is not listening

The point of the original comment is mostly that devices like echos are expected to always be listening, and this has legal implication.

Re: Locked-down lawyers warned Alexa is hearing confidential calls

#105

Post by masklinn » Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 4:29 PM UTC

daveFNbuck wrote: post #99

pdkl95 wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only things in my pocket are my wallet and keys. My phone[1] could probably be used for remote surveillance, but without a warrant, that's a crime. Note: intent and expectations matter. A cellphone by itself (without any type of "voice assistant" app or feature) is only intended to record audio when it's being used to make a call. Yes, malicious actors or buggy software could enable the microphone, but that's not…

Cellphones with voice assistants are already in general public use, even if you don't have one. So if general public use is enough to justify warrantless surveillance, we're already there.

A cellphone doesn't necessarily have the voice assistant enabled, and works just fine without it. An Echo, Homepod or Google Home without the voice assistant is basically useless (I don't know whether you can even disabled the VA).

Re: Locked-down lawyers warned Alexa is hearing confidential calls

#106

Post by dmix » Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 4:30 PM UTC

willhslade wrote: post #64

zie wrote: post #7

I have no doubt they are able to hear anything happening in the room they happen to be installed in. But I doubt they listen for anything but their keyword, and I seriously doubt they listen, record and send off to their overlords what they hear on a massive basis. However, they clearly CAN, and while they almost certainly don't on any massive scale, if they by their overlord or a security hack, did on a targeted bas…

The FBI has been doing this for 15 years with cars and OnStar. They will do this with smart speakers once enough people have them. https://www.forbes.com/sites/thomasbrewster/2017/01/15/polic...

2006: The FBI admits for the first time to turning a dumb phone into a microphone to listen in on a some New York mafia guys conversations at a restaurant in the early days even before smartphones made it even easier to do so. Which they publicly used to convict them (meaning it was probably an old tactic by then):

> The FBI appears to have begun using a novel form of electronic surveillance in criminal investigations: remotely activating a mobile phone's microphone and using it to eavesdrop on nearby conversations.

https://www.cnet.com/news/fbi-taps-cell-phone-mic-as-eavesdr...

Re: Locked-down lawyers warned Alexa is hearing confidential calls

#107

Post by rapind » Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 4:32 PM UTC

wolco wrote: post #54

lima wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many Android phones have always-on "Ok Google" hotword detection that works exactly like the standalone devices. Source: Mine does, very useful!

No one who cares about privacy would turn that on.

Maybe you do care but your significant other or roommate doesn't (and doesn't want to understand because... inconvenient).

Thank Google / Amazon for creating drama where none existed.

Re: Locked-down lawyers warned Alexa is hearing confidential calls

#108

Post by charlesism » Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 4:34 PM UTC

matz1 wrote: post #93

charlesism wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well then. Carry on :)

Not sure if you are being snarky. Do you have anything to add ?

We seem to agree about the level of risk. It's no more my place to tell you how comfortable you should feel with that risk, than it would be for me to tell you what genre of music should be your favorite. That's just personal preference.

Re: Locked-down lawyers warned Alexa is hearing confidential calls

#109

Post by rapind » Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 4:35 PM UTC

willhslade wrote: post #64

zie wrote: post #7

I have no doubt they are able to hear anything happening in the room they happen to be installed in. But I doubt they listen for anything but their keyword, and I seriously doubt they listen, record and send off to their overlords what they hear on a massive basis. However, they clearly CAN, and while they almost certainly don't on any massive scale, if they by their overlord or a security hack, did on a targeted bas…

The FBI has been doing this for 15 years with cars and OnStar. They will do this with smart speakers once enough people have them. https://www.forbes.com/sites/thomasbrewster/2017/01/15/polic...

And we can't reign it in cause terrorism!

Re: Locked-down lawyers warned Alexa is hearing confidential calls

#110

Post by Klinky » Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 4:37 PM UTC

masklinn wrote: post #104

Klinky wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're trusting that the microphone is not listening, which is about on par with trusting any device that claims to only store stuff in a local buffer, except when commanded to talk to the cloud. I think to your point, there is possibly more legal protection around wiretaps than voice assistants. However, how many apps have access to the microphone? Are these apps covered by the same protections as making a phone cal…

> You're trusting that the microphone is not listening The point of the original comment is mostly that devices like echos are expected to always be listening, and this has legal implication.

Can the police right now go to Amazon and demand to listen to anyone's Alexa in real-time? Can the NSA go to any landline provider, and demand a secret list of a person's entire call history(or they may already have this already)?

The biggest profile case where Alexa audio recordings got turned over was during a murder trial after a judge's orders.

I am not entirely clear that the ramifications of Kyllo v. United States are as dire as OP is stating for Alexa-like devices. How exactly do the police freely gain access to a "in general public use" Alexa-like device that is secured through something like an Amazon account and secured WPA password-protected WiFi network? Amazon would have to turn over credentials or the police would have to hack your account or WiFi somehow...