Locked-down lawyers warned Alexa is hearing confidential calls • Hacker News Board

Re: Locked-down lawyers warned Alexa is hearing confidential calls

#61

Post by eth0up » Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 3:13 PM UTC

masklinn wrote: post #23

rhino369 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>However, they clearly CAN, and while they almost certainly don't on any massive scale, if they by their overlord or a security hack, did on a targeted basis listen, record and send conversations on, that would be very possible, and very harmful for whoever was targeted. Besides the fact that they have better antennas, this is true for pretty much any device with a microphone and a processor with audio processing cap…

> My laptop has a microphone and video. Surely Microsoft could just start recording with the with right windows update? It's a commonly mentioned issue, and a somewhat regular occurrence with various malware or "security solutions". That's why a number of laptops have either visual indicators or shutters (though mostly for the cameras, sadly hot mics are rarely a consideration), and a rare few have physical disconnec…

Perhaps within the hazy, inextricable mists of jack, pulse and alsa, there's an answer. I remember feeling qualified for a job at NSA after getting midi and my mic to work (effectively) on my Arch (Mint, Ubuntu, Debian, etc) laptops years ago. It was a feat. I can see:

Hacker1: we've got root.

Hacker2: yeah, but how the fuck do we get audio to work?

Hacker1: modify grub to default to windows partition and reboot, or maybe install Virtual Box and run windows. Probably not possible otherwise.

Hacker2: No, waaay too slow, they're on an ATT gateway. Find a softer target.

Re: Locked-down lawyers warned Alexa is hearing confidential calls

#62

Post by mentat » Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 3:13 PM UTC

wolco wrote: post #54

lima wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many Android phones have always-on "Ok Google" hotword detection that works exactly like the standalone devices. Source: Mine does, very useful!

No one who cares about privacy would turn that on.

And that's not the standard but rather in general use.

Re: Locked-down lawyers warned Alexa is hearing confidential calls

#63

Post by a3n » Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 3:14 PM UTC

shawnz wrote: post #13

mrfusion wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also what’s stopping them processing advertising relevant keywords locally and then just sending a list of keywords to amazon.

Now that they've publicly claimed several times that they don't do that, I think it would really erode trust in the product if they changed the policy.

Not much beyond those here assembled.

Re: Locked-down lawyers warned Alexa is hearing confidential calls

#64

Post by willhslade » Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 3:14 PM UTC

zie wrote: post #7

I have no doubt they are able to hear anything happening in the room they happen to be installed in. But I doubt they listen for anything but their keyword, and I seriously doubt they listen, record and send off to their overlords what they hear on a massive basis. However, they clearly CAN, and while they almost certainly don't on any massive scale, if they by their overlord or a security hack, did on a targeted bas…

The FBI has been doing this for 15 years with cars and OnStar. They will do this with smart speakers once enough people have them.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/thomasbrewster/2017/01/15/polic...

Re: Locked-down lawyers warned Alexa is hearing confidential calls

#65

Post by netsharc » Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 3:15 PM UTC

tprynn wrote: post #42

masklinn wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My laptop has a microphone and video. Surely Microsoft could just start recording with the with right windows update? It's a commonly mentioned issue, and a somewhat regular occurrence with various malware or "security solutions". That's why a number of laptops have either visual indicators or shutters (though mostly for the cameras, sadly hot mics are rarely a consideration), and a rare few have physical disconnec…

Macbooks since 2018 physically disable microphones and webcams when the lid is closed: https://www.businessinsider.com/apple-macbook-air-and-2018-m...

How does a chip "physically disconnects" a device?

Re: Locked-down lawyers warned Alexa is hearing confidential calls

#66

Post by a3n » Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 3:17 PM UTC

malux85 wrote: post #21

mtsr wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It wasn’t always the case that teleconferencing providers could listen in. At least Skype was peer-to-peer originally. And only corporate firewalls and some bad providers would prevent it from working today. My email provider surely isn’t reading my mail, but then again, I seem to be in a minority that doesn’t use gmail. The threat of real-time speech-to-text is real, but police all over the world have made the mista…

Which email provider do you use?

Fastmail for me.

Re: Locked-down lawyers warned Alexa is hearing confidential calls

#67

Post by Benjamin_Dobell » Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 3:18 PM UTC

lima wrote: post #51

Foober223 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Supposedly your smart phone and smart TV are not passively listening to your offline conversations. That's only done on a targeted basis to people who are being monitored. Your location history however is being passively tracked. Not defending it, but your smart phone is not quite as bad as Alexa. At least for the moment.

Many Android phones have always-on "Ok Google" hotword detection that works exactly like the standalone devices. Source: Mine does, very useful!

You'll note that "OK, Google" works when your phone is on flight mode. Google aren't constantly sending your microphone data to their servers, the recognition of that phrase happens on your device.

Re: Locked-down lawyers warned Alexa is hearing confidential calls

#68

Post by lima » Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 3:22 PM UTC

wolco wrote: post #60

lima wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You know that, for data on big corporation's servers, the NSA already gets a copy of everything This is squarely in conspiracy theory realm. Nothing in the Snowden documents or other leaks hinted at this (except for the NSA snooping on unencrypted internal links, which is useless now that everyone encrypts everything). > Why would this be so different for voluntary self-espionage devices (Alex, Dot etc.)? Why would…

The Snowden documents are old now while this has become the hottest gift. "Why would a big tech company willfully infringe on their customer's privacy?" to comply with a national security order. These companies are not lawless entities fighting for good.

I don't think NSL can even be used request the actual content of the recordings (vs. "just" the metadata) - a judge would have to sign off on that.

Now, clearly there's a lot of questionable practices like secret courts, gag orders and ineffective oversight in general, but this is still far from "for data on big corporation's servers, the NSA already gets a copy of everything", and very far from "being forced to deploy a firmware update that turns a smart home devices into a bug".

Companies act exclusively in their own interests, which I would hope includes to not engage in covert surveillance of their own customers.

This will only stay this way if we keep demanding and expecting privacy, and push for stronger oversight. But defeatist claims like "the NSA gets all data anyway" are not useful.

Re: Locked-down lawyers warned Alexa is hearing confidential calls

#69

Post by rpdillon » Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 3:25 PM UTC

Benjamin_Dobell wrote: post #67

lima wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many Android phones have always-on "Ok Google" hotword detection that works exactly like the standalone devices. Source: Mine does, very useful!

You'll note that "OK, Google" works when your phone is on flight mode. Google aren't constantly sending your microphone data to their servers, the recognition of that phrase happens on your device.

Wake word recognition happens on-device with Alexa as well.

Re: Locked-down lawyers warned Alexa is hearing confidential calls

#70

Post by friendlybus » Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 3:25 PM UTC

wolco wrote: post #54

lima wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many Android phones have always-on "Ok Google" hotword detection that works exactly like the standalone devices. Source: Mine does, very useful!

No one who cares about privacy would turn that on.

Steve Jobs said in an inteview that Apple did pretty well on the privacy thing. He wanted to ask the user for permission to access private data, others wanted to take it all without asking.

That gives me enough information to guess there's people who would make apps that take the private data without asking, whether the option to turn off privacy feature blocks them all or not is the question.