Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017) • Hacker News Board

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#21

Post by aphextron » Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 2:11 PM UTC

tropo wrote: post #2

People hit calculus, which is almost never needed in the job market, and they give up. Lots of math and hard science is in the major. It's not an alternative to the humanities and liberal arts and languages. It's done in addition, which just isn't fair at all. Students take two or three semesters of calculus-based physics, three semesters of calculus, two semesters of discrete math, engineering statistics, linear alg…

>People hit calculus, which is almost never needed in the job market, and they give up.

This.

I tried going back to school for a CS degree at 26 after 5 years of professional experience in the bay area as a developer. The CS classes are trivially easy, but I simply could not do the math. I paid for tutors. I lived on Khan Academy all day long. I tried three semesters in a row to pass calculus and just couldn't do it. The vast majority of people simply cannot pass the math classes required for an engineering degree.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#22

Post by devmunchies » Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 2:12 PM UTC

Anecdotal, but I minored in CS so I wouldn’t be counted, even though I took the core algorithm courses and have continued studying since graduating 5 years ago.

I don’t see how one would know what they needed to interview at a FAANG without taking data structures and algorithms courses.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#23

Post by abdullahkhalids » Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 2:14 PM UTC

tropo wrote: post #2

People hit calculus, which is almost never needed in the job market, and they give up. Lots of math and hard science is in the major. It's not an alternative to the humanities and liberal arts and languages. It's done in addition, which just isn't fair at all. Students take two or three semesters of calculus-based physics, three semesters of calculus, two semesters of discrete math, engineering statistics, linear alg…

> People hit calculus, which is almost never needed in the job market, and they give up.

This is almost like saying, basketball players don't need to do pushups during the basketball match, so basketball training should skip push ups. The reason all engineers and scientists (computer or natural) should do calculus/differential equations/hard math courses is because these courses make students smarter.

They are a form of mental exercise that permanently increase your maximum brain capacity and your ability to do complex logical reasoning. It is possible you could replace these courses with some more job-relevant courses, but those courses would have to be just as brain wrinkling as these courses, if you wanted to maintain the current intellectual level of the industry.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#24

Post by bombingwinger » Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 2:16 PM UTC

tropo wrote: post #2

People hit calculus, which is almost never needed in the job market, and they give up. Lots of math and hard science is in the major. It's not an alternative to the humanities and liberal arts and languages. It's done in addition, which just isn't fair at all. Students take two or three semesters of calculus-based physics, three semesters of calculus, two semesters of discrete math, engineering statistics, linear alg…

So you’re likely more educated. What’s your argument?

CS majors come out of the gate making 100K, can change companies whenever they want, are mission-critical assets wherever they go, and work in ivory towers.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#25

Post by rcurry » Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 2:17 PM UTC

tropo wrote: post #2

People hit calculus, which is almost never needed in the job market, and they give up. Lots of math and hard science is in the major. It's not an alternative to the humanities and liberal arts and languages. It's done in addition, which just isn't fair at all. Students take two or three semesters of calculus-based physics, three semesters of calculus, two semesters of discrete math, engineering statistics, linear alg…

This. I think the problem is that schools need to have separate tracks, and now days some of them do, that differentiate between the archetypes of people that work with software. A computer scientist is different from a computer programmer - sure, there are times when the different areas may overlap, but some people want to work in discovery and others want to work in application.

And to some degree, isn't the job of science to make life easier for the rest of us? I know some people scoff at people that don't have CS degrees, but it's important to be realistic about science's role in industry: thanks to the combined output of a lot of very talented computer scientists, computer programming is getting easier and more approachable with every passing year. It's not uncommon now for people with very little knowledge of computer science to build all kinds of complex applications. I see that as a victory for computer science, not a setback. And I think the people that want to apply science are just as important to the success of our industry as those who want to develop it.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#26

Post by ghaff » Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 2:24 PM UTC

sammyh wrote: post #16

One theory could be that people do not simply have the previous experience in CS the same way they have it from physics, biology, chemistry and math from college or even before. I for once was interested in physics, started in electrical engineering but transferred quickly to computer science just after few mandatory courses I had taken.

As I wrote elsewhere, my money would be on the opposite if anything. Yes, there are base level science courses in high school. But you can sign on as a chemistry, physics, or mechanical engineering major with very little beyond some basic aptitude and interest.

At many schools, on the other hand, if you're following the CS curriculum you're starting off with topics like algorithms and effectively teaching yourself programming and maybe even how to use computers in parallel. This has changed a lot over time. When I got my non-CS engineering degree way back when, the one computer course I took was really a programming (FORTRAN) course that assumed zero prior knowledge.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#27

Post by abdullahkhalids » Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 2:24 PM UTC

aphextron wrote: post #21

tropo wrote: post #2

People hit calculus, which is almost never needed in the job market, and they give up. Lots of math and hard science is in the major. It's not an alternative to the humanities and liberal arts and languages. It's done in addition, which just isn't fair at all. Students take two or three semesters of calculus-based physics, three semesters of calculus, two semesters of discrete math, engineering statistics, linear alg…

>People hit calculus, which is almost never needed in the job market, and they give up. This. I tried going back to school for a CS degree at 26 after 5 years of professional experience in the bay area as a developer. The CS classes are trivially easy, but I simply could not do the math. I paid for tutors. I lived on Khan Academy all day long. I tried three semesters in a row to pass calculus and just couldn't do it.…

How many questions did you do with pen and paper, without access to any outside help (book/tutors/videos)? If you start with trivially easy questions (d(x^2)/dx = 2x) and do 1000-2000 questions with very minutely increasing difficulty level, I am sure you would ultimately pass the course.

Questions you do with others, or examples from the book are useful for conceptual clarity, but that clarity can only be guaranteed to be solidified if you successfully do questions without help.

People often think you don't need practice to master math, but don't bat an eye when they see professional football players passing the ball to each as warm up before a big game (after having played the game for 20 years and passed the ball 100k times already). Fundamentals are important. I just started learning drums, and my music teacher has been making me practice the same beat for the past 3 months over and over again till I absolutely master it. Me and every other student is happily doing it.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#28

Post by coretx » Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 2:30 PM UTC

Algebra is just math, and information sciences entail more.

People go to university while they should go to school instead since universities are primarily about the progress of science while schools are not, but do primarily cater to the desire to have a job. At the end of the day, the desired output of both institutions suffers.

In Japan, what many people would call basic "CS" is being taught at elementary schools in order to prepare the youth for the future... And in case my argument is still not clear, they don't receive a CS degree for their accomplishments as its nothing but yet another basic prerequisite fulfilled.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#29

Post by jasode » Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 2:32 PM UTC

Nursie wrote: post #18

netsharc wrote: post #3

A CS prof of mine said studying CS to later do programming is like studying architecture to later be a house builder. I find it an apt comparison.

I'm not sure it's that apt... maybe it is, so long as you grant that architrctural study can help you design and build better houses. Sure, you can get the knowledge in other ways, and sure, some of the houses built by people who haven't studied architecture are great too. Some aren't though, and their builders could have benefitted from a bit of theory ahead of time. It's almost more like the relationship between ma…

>For those saying you've never been helped by your CS degree, [...] You've seriously never bothered thinking about, say, algorithmic complexity?

There are lots of successful working programmers that will never need to deal with "algorithmic complexity" because "programming" encompasses a very wide spectrum of skills. I attempted to explain a rough categorization of 2 groups:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12079697

So yes, a programmer in group 1 -- let's say a 30-year veteran of COBOL -- can conceivably never have to make a decision about designing an algorithm & data structure to be O(n) vs O(log n) because he works at a higher abstraction level using COBOL. His domain of work doesn't need to deal with low-level things like raw pointers to linked-lists in C/C++ where Big-O complexity is considered when engineering a custom b-tree from scratch.

The programmers in group 1 are not any "worse" than group 2. They just do a different type of programming.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#30

Post by username90 » Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 2:36 PM UTC

tropo wrote: post #2

People hit calculus, which is almost never needed in the job market, and they give up. Lots of math and hard science is in the major. It's not an alternative to the humanities and liberal arts and languages. It's done in addition, which just isn't fair at all. Students take two or three semesters of calculus-based physics, three semesters of calculus, two semesters of discrete math, engineering statistics, linear alg…

> A person majoring in education could skip all that, even if intending to be a math or science teacher.

A person majoring in education earns nowhere close to what STEM grads does even if intending to be a math or science teacher. Knowing those things is what makes you valuable, anyone can learn programming but not everyone will know how things works and you can't program stuff you don't understand.