Risky hack could double access to ventilators • Hacker News Board

Re: Risky hack could double access to ventilators

#41

Post by Robadob » Fri, Mar 20, 2020, 8:50 AM UTC

yread wrote: post #35

There is quite some discussion of it here https://emcrit.org/pulmcrit/split-ventilators/ It has certain disadvantages (like not being able to trigger a breath on yiur own)

The video's here, in Italy, show the ventilators used with a bag over the patient's head to create a bubble of positive pressure (and quarantine off their head).

So presumably in a scenario like this it's less of a problem about 'triggering own breath'.

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-they-call-it-the-apoc...

Re: Risky hack could double access to ventilators

#42

Post by newsbinator » Fri, Mar 20, 2020, 8:54 AM UTC

_ZeD_ wrote: post #40

"Risky hack" is not something I want to apply during a sanitary emergency

This may sound hyperbolic, but world wars are full of risky hacks, when things are dire. It's good to have them on napkins in back pockets, just in case.

Re: Risky hack could double access to ventilators

#43

Post by pbhjpbhj » Fri, Mar 20, 2020, 9:04 AM UTC

Have governments made orders (legal or purchase) for manufacture of ventilators by large scale companies?

Presumably ventilators are a relatively niche product - what's in them that the World's industrial complexes can't ramp up production of within a couple of weeks?

I imagine it's the pumps that's the limiting factor? Given humanity already has the working tested, established designs.

Can't governments requisition the design, turn the original factories in to test only, or construct and test, centres. Instruct the mega-corps, publicly, which parts they are to make and by when ...

In the West we throw away tens-of-thousands of highly engineered products every day; surely we can step up now?

Re: Risky hack could double access to ventilators

#44

Post by appleflaxen » Fri, Mar 20, 2020, 9:06 AM UTC

_ZeD_ wrote: post #40

"Risky hack" is not something I want to apply during a sanitary emergency

it's all about tradeoffs

of course you don't want to

but in italy, fatalities increased because there aren't enough ventilators.

US is days away from that point

so if it's a matter of no ventilator or a dirty ventilator, most people will take the dirty vent.

after all: the sanitary crisis is for Coronavirus, and you already have it.

Re: Risky hack could double access to ventilators

#45

Post by meheleventyone » Fri, Mar 20, 2020, 9:16 AM UTC

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #43

Have governments made orders (legal or purchase) for manufacture of ventilators by large scale companies? Presumably ventilators are a relatively niche product - what's in them that the World's industrial complexes can't ramp up production of within a couple of weeks? I imagine it's the pumps that's the limiting factor? Given humanity already has the working tested, established designs. Can't governments requisition…

Reporting in the UK says that half a dozen prototypes have been delivered to the NHS for manufacturing approval already.

Re: Risky hack could double access to ventilators

#46

Post by kaetemi » Fri, Mar 20, 2020, 9:22 AM UTC

meheleventyone wrote: post #45

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #43

Have governments made orders (legal or purchase) for manufacture of ventilators by large scale companies? Presumably ventilators are a relatively niche product - what's in them that the World's industrial complexes can't ramp up production of within a couple of weeks? I imagine it's the pumps that's the limiting factor? Given humanity already has the working tested, established designs. Can't governments requisition…

Reporting in the UK says that half a dozen prototypes have been delivered to the NHS for manufacturing approval already.

Half a dozen somehow sounds more impressive than six...

Re: Risky hack could double access to ventilators

#47

Post by bigfudge » Fri, Mar 20, 2020, 9:26 AM UTC

tempestn wrote: post #34

blackrock wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t know. Having HIV and AIDS is the ultimate scarlet letter. It’s the mark of death. Even in this day and age, over 30 years later, the stigma of having it is socially unacceptable, regardless of what is publicly promoted.

What are you talking about? You're saying given the choice between dying of COVID-19 right now due to lack of a ventilator, and a hypothetical chance of getting AIDS (a treatable disease that you could very well live with for decades), you don't find the choice obvious? That doesn't make any sense.

I think OP his projecting his own prejudices upon society at large.

Re: Risky hack could double access to ventilators

#48

Post by Continuous » Fri, Mar 20, 2020, 9:26 AM UTC

This is ridiculous!

Hacks are ok with web and app deployments where you are able to patch and fix to your heart's content and the damage is not life threatening.

I have worked with the medical industry, the amount of formal validation and verification that goes through on software is insane compared to what we have in the "move fast and break things" world.

Even if it is "temporary" and "desperate" I would stay away from this mentality as much as humanly possible.

Re: Risky hack could double access to ventilators

#49

Post by varjag » Fri, Mar 20, 2020, 9:31 AM UTC

Continuous wrote: post #48

This is ridiculous! Hacks are ok with web and app deployments where you are able to patch and fix to your heart's content and the damage is not life threatening. I have worked with the medical industry, the amount of formal validation and verification that goes through on software is insane compared to what we have in the "move fast and break things" world. Even if it is "temporary" and "desperate" I would stay away…

In Northern Italy patients are being turned down on triage because there is not enough treatment capacity. They go home and many of them die.

Just like you would use a sweaty t-shirt over an open wound in a life or death situation if there is no certified sterile bandage at hand. The calculus is different.

Re: Risky hack could double access to ventilators

#50

Post by fifteenforty » Fri, Mar 20, 2020, 9:35 AM UTC

Continuous wrote: post #48

This is ridiculous! Hacks are ok with web and app deployments where you are able to patch and fix to your heart's content and the damage is not life threatening. I have worked with the medical industry, the amount of formal validation and verification that goes through on software is insane compared to what we have in the "move fast and break things" world. Even if it is "temporary" and "desperate" I would stay away…

On more than one occasion I have "broken the rules" or Macgyvered my way out of a life-threatening situation (for my patients), either with equipment or drugs. This is a crisis. Our systems aren't working fast enough to cope.