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Things you can do with a browser in 2020

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Re: Things you can do with a browser in 2020

#181

Post by taeric »

untog wrote: post #79
rkagerer wrote: post #28

As a user, so many of these I wish did NOT exist. E.g: Push Notifications, Banners, Web Share, Contacts, Page Visibility, Badging. Uncertain about USB, Bluetooth, Locks, Keyboard Lock, and Native File System. I don't want my browser doing those things.

Then you're out of step with what users want these days. Nothing wrong with that! But to take an example, when I hit a share button on a page I want to see the native share box, not some hideous iframed monstrosity that only works with Facebook. So I want Web Share. And I don't want to download an entire native app just so that I can receive a push alert when my food order is on the way, a web site works much better…

I prefer copying the link to the page I'm on to share. No popups, native or otherwise.

Similarly, I like not having an app running so that you could just send me a text. Sms is bad for security, but great see sending short notifications. Almost better, as it is so limited.

Re: Things you can do with a browser in 2020

#182

Post by taeric »

freehunter wrote: post #176
gowld wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's wrong with native app? You can delete it when you are done with it, just like you can close a browser tab when you are done with the "entire" web app you downloaded.

The problem with native apps is they only work on platforms the developer supports. Web apps occasionally have this problem too, but native apps always have that problem.

The problem with the modern web is it is becoming only the platform Google chooses...

Re: Things you can do with a browser in 2020

#183

Post by OkGoDoIt »

rkagerer wrote: post #28

As a user, so many of these I wish did NOT exist. E.g: Push Notifications, Banners, Web Share, Contacts, Page Visibility, Badging. Uncertain about USB, Bluetooth, Locks, Keyboard Lock, and Native File System. I don't want my browser doing those things.

As long as they are opt in, which most of them currently are, then I’m fine with it. I generally set my browser to blanket ban most of this functionality but I do occasionally override that on a site-by-site basis when it’s useful. I think this is a pretty good state of affairs, versus not even having the option at all

Re: Things you can do with a browser in 2020

#184

Post by ComputerGuru »

hobs wrote: post #174
hombre_fatal wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No uBlock, no dev console, no network tab. Completely opaque. An install step just to order a pizza. Shareable URLs/deeplinks. It's a freak of luck that we have the web, an app environment with a built-in dev console and actual customization. Just think how much it contrasts with the black box of native apps and with what large companies actually want. I'm in no rush to throw it away.

No need for ublock, the dev console is called your memory, your network tab is now something the entire os can understand, and you can even opportunistically block specific network calls. Obfuscated javascript running in the console is no better than random apps, and webasm is going to make that even more opaque. You are talking about features that are only needed for websites and why an app doesnt have those feature…

I think the point is that these features are masked from the user (especially on mobile) when performed in a native app vs a website.

Re: Things you can do with a browser in 2020

#185

Post by TheCoelacanth »

jfkebwjsbx wrote: post #158
TheCoelacanth wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

kernel = browser, user land = web apps I don't understand what you mean by "In the browser everything is exposed to everyone by default". Browsers have a much more robust security and privacy model than normal OSes.

False. For starters, browsers can only implement sandboxing thanks to the OS facilities, otherwise it would be impossible. And that is modern ones. 5 years ago some browsers were still a security nightmare with not even multiprocess separation.

There's a difference between what features OSes have and which ones they are effectively using.

If you ran untrusted native apps with the same level of consideration that people run untrusted web sites, your identity would be stolen every 30 seconds. That is solid empirical evidence of a better security model.

Re: Things you can do with a browser in 2020

#186

Post by gmueckl »

MaxBarraclough wrote: post #48
ipsum2 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consider that different users have different needs, and almost all features listed are opt-in.

Even if it's opt-in, we still pay a price. Complexity has its costs. It means my browser is more bigger and more complex. It broadens the attack surface exposed by my browser, perhaps even if I don't opt-in. It dilutes the efforts of the Firefox team. It introduces new ways for browsers to be subtly incompatible. It further raises the barrier to someone making a serious browser from scratch. Also, are we guaranteed t…

WebGL was never opt-in and everybody familiar with GPU programming saw the issues coming from miles away. It was an idea that was about as stupid as Java applet sandboxing.

Re: Things you can do with a browser in 2020

#187

Post by scubbo »

untog wrote: post #79
rkagerer wrote: post #28

As a user, so many of these I wish did NOT exist. E.g: Push Notifications, Banners, Web Share, Contacts, Page Visibility, Badging. Uncertain about USB, Bluetooth, Locks, Keyboard Lock, and Native File System. I don't want my browser doing those things.

Then you're out of step with what users want these days. Nothing wrong with that! But to take an example, when I hit a share button on a page I want to see the native share box, not some hideous iframed monstrosity that only works with Facebook. So I want Web Share. And I don't want to download an entire native app just so that I can receive a push alert when my food order is on the way, a web site works much better…

This is such an important realization.

I, too, personally wish most of those features didn't exist. But I acknowledge that I am in the minority.

Re: Things you can do with a browser in 2020

#188

Post by GuiA »

untog wrote: post #79
rkagerer wrote: post #28

As a user, so many of these I wish did NOT exist. E.g: Push Notifications, Banners, Web Share, Contacts, Page Visibility, Badging. Uncertain about USB, Bluetooth, Locks, Keyboard Lock, and Native File System. I don't want my browser doing those things.

Then you're out of step with what users want these days. Nothing wrong with that! But to take an example, when I hit a share button on a page I want to see the native share box, not some hideous iframed monstrosity that only works with Facebook. So I want Web Share. And I don't want to download an entire native app just so that I can receive a push alert when my food order is on the way, a web site works much better…

"As a user, I don't want this" seems like a reasonable claim.

"Then you don't know what other people want" doesn't seem like a reasonable response.

People want a lot of things - but only use what they can access. Additionally, people will deliberately choose to use broken/painful systems if they have to, in order to accomplish a broader goal. Finally, the vast majority of systems used by users are built because they are profitable to build/operate. In many (most?) cases, they are not profitable to the user in the same way that they are to their builder/operator.

From those simple observations, it seems like quite stretch to claim that anything that has many users is something that people want, and that they enjoy using.

Re: Things you can do with a browser in 2020

#190

Post by gwern »

chrfrasco wrote: post #180
gwern wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it's such an obscure feature that many of the people who enable it don't even realize it... Ever since I added dark mode to gwern.net, I've been getting or seeing complaints about how my website is broken or 'defaults to black-on-white' (it doesn't). :(

Looks like we need prefers-prefers-color-scheme

But then what happens when they forget opting into the opting in?!
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