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GM’s CEO Offers to Make Ventilators in WWII-Style Mobilization

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Re: GM’s CEO Offers to Make Ventilators in WWII-Style Mobilization

#411

Post by greedo »

NohatCoder wrote: post #354
abeld wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The type of ventillators required by the most serious cases are much more complicated: as I understand it, it involves push a tube down to the lungs, and the machine breathing instead of the patient, i.e. it has to carefully monitor and regulate the pressure etc. Already the "push tube down to the lungs" part is quite a challenge: avoiding damage to the vocal cords, or to the lungs, etc.

Tubes down the lungs is definitely a bit tricky, not all patients will require that model though. As for careful monitoring, that is something the machine does on its own, as long as it has been configured correctly for the individual patient.

This is incorrect on many levels. A ventilator always requires intubation. Sometimes that's through the mouth, sometimes through the nasal passage (both cases are referred to as endotracheal), and rarely through a tracheostomy. Ventilators do have some monitoring capability, but require consistent attention from respiratory therapists. The chances of infection (VAP), pneumothorax etc are serious without careful monitoring by a trained, experienced medical professional. These aren't plug and play devices.

Some patients might need supplementary oxygen delivered through a canula, or through a mask, but that's nothing like the procedure used for a vent.

Re: GM’s CEO Offers to Make Ventilators in WWII-Style Mobilization

#413

Post by dillonmckay »

ethbro wrote: post #404
dillonmckay wrote: post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US refused the WHO tests and wanted to create their own.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/us-coronavirus-test/ That's kind of like saying "I've got a motherboard, am missing an Intel CPU, but AMD has CPUs, so I'll just put one of those in there." Rolling out testing on the scale that was obviously needed even then is a non-trivial thing, requiring coordination of multiple parties, all in a climate of dubious information. So, yeah, I think it's understandable (a) to stick…

What pre-arranged plan?

Re: GM’s CEO Offers to Make Ventilators in WWII-Style Mobilization

#414

Post by m4rtink »

ajross wrote: post #171
jacquesm wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whoever thought that running your healthcare system in a commercial fashion was the right idea in the first place? A lot of fundamental decisions are going to be re-thought in the aftermath of this virus' impact, but for now we can ignore all that and focus on what matters: eradicating the thing. And if GM making ventilators on a war footing is what it takes I'm all for it, let's divert some of those funds to them an…

To be clear: I'm certainly not opposed the idea of air-dropping GM-manufactured ventilators to needy hospitals (though I'll admit I don't see how it's ever going to work in time and genuinely think this sounds like marketing on GMs part more than a serious idea). I'm just saying that the person that needs to get off their ass and move on these ideas isn't Mary Barra but Donald Trump (and McConnell and Pelosi of cours…

As for actual air-dropping - this is actually not that far from reality here in Europe. Two days ago Czech army transport aircraft (nothing fancy, just a A319) got back from Shenzen with 100k quick-tests for the virus, that can give results in about half an hour for a symptomatic infected person. Then the test were distributed to main hospitals via police helicopters.

Reportedly the Hungarian government learned about this operation & are likely to do something similar in the next days.

Also in parallel, Czech Airlines aircraft have been pretty much drafted and sent to China for more stuff - like more tests, respirators and personal protective equipment. And one of the huge Ukrainian AN-124s has been chartered and is already on way for ~100 tons of medical supplies in one go, with more likely to follow.

Basically any classical goods transfer methods are far too slow for this and time is of essence.

Re: GM’s CEO Offers to Make Ventilators in WWII-Style Mobilization

#415

Post by blackrock »

config_yml wrote: post #379
BurningFrog wrote: post #80

Meanwhile, actual ventilator manufacturers are not getting many orders: https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/03/18/ventilator-...

Manufactures like Hamilton Medical that are local here are currently working overtime and also work on Saturdays to keep up with demand. They are not raising prices, but they're also not selling to new customers, as they're afraid intermediate buyers are taking advantage and raising prices on their end. They also said they have about 2-3 months of runway until their supplies dry up, since parts from China aren't comi…

How did they know to order more supplies in December?

China reported the new novel strain of the coronavirus to the WHO on December 31. [1] If correct, then this means they were monitoring the news, and reacted immediately, and on the very same day of the fresh report.

[1] https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6905e1.htm

Re: GM’s CEO Offers to Make Ventilators in WWII-Style Mobilization

#416

Post by chrononaut »

anthony_r wrote: post #397
1propionyl wrote: post #51

To everyone saying "great, but why didn't this start months ago?" Well, sure, but the second best time to start is now.

Because Elon thought that the coronavirus panic is dumb. https://elonmusk.today/ https://www.thestar.com.my/tech/tech-news/2020/03/11/tesla-c...

The content quoted in the "The Star" makes it seems more to me that he's calling the _panic_ dumb, not the necessities required to fight the pandemic, which he acknowledges exists in his follow-on tweets, at least the ones "The Star" quoted.

I also think the "coronavirus panic" is dumb, but I'm defining the "panic" when I say this as people buying 5 years of toilet paper, and unless there's more context that's what I am also assuming he is referring to.

Re: GM’s CEO Offers to Make Ventilators in WWII-Style Mobilization

#417

Post by PascLeRasc »

WalterBright wrote: post #121
1propionyl wrote: post #51

To everyone saying "great, but why didn't this start months ago?" Well, sure, but the second best time to start is now.

No better time to get familiar with the "sunk cost fallacy".

Eh, if you haven't heard of it by now it's not worth reading about.

Re: GM’s CEO Offers to Make Ventilators in WWII-Style Mobilization

#418

Post by Quarrelsome »

NohatCoder wrote: post #258
malandrew wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because they are not the bottleneck. Intensivists that can operate the vents are the bottleneck https://sccm.org/Blog/March-2020/United-States-Resource-Avai...

That is some bureaucratic nonsense. Setting up and maintaining a ventilator is not rocket science, you can train other staff to do that job pretty quickly. Ancillary tasks may suffer from staff shortage, but if you need one, getting a ventilator and minimal care is a lot better than not getting a ventilator.

I was reading some accounts on /r/nursing that its relatively complex. The issue you have is that its quite easy to kill a patient if you fuck it up and there are multiple factors that impact the operation of the machine (e.g. patient weight for example).

Re: GM’s CEO Offers to Make Ventilators in WWII-Style Mobilization

#419

Post by alkonaut »

neuronic wrote: post #405
ABeeSea wrote: post #392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If GM makes 10,000 ventilators and they all turn out defective, that could be worse then never making the ventilators at all.

Correct, this is also why we can skip animal trials for vaccine development but not human trials . A vaccine that is supposed to be deployed across the board will affect many millions of people and if even a minuscule issue exists we may cause way more harm than good! The situation is dire and we need fast countermeasures but regulations exist for a reason. This is about health & safety after all.

A vaccine is given to healthy people. A drug that is given to a small number of people that are so sick that they will die within days and there is no other cure, has different safety requirements from a vaccine that is given to a huge number of people that are healthy. In the vaccine case, even a relatively rare (1/10000) side effect might mean that the vaccine is worse than the cure. Not so with the treatment of dying people.

Safety wise, using untested equipment is the same as the drug for dying people scenario, not the vaccine scenario.

A similar example is this: in normal circumstances these devices are operated by ICU doctors. In a time of crisis you can already see this delegated to doctors that have never used a ventilator, and only given a brief introduction or even just a pamphlet describing it.

I suspect that within the next months there will be places where recently trained nurses perform the duties of ICU doctors. And laid off hotell staff perform nursing duties.

> regulations exist for a reason. This is about health & safety after all.

They do, but most regulations are surprisingly flexible in a crisis. E.g. already the rest time requirements for truck drivers are lifted in many countries to keep supply lines.

In the military (where a crisis is planned for) there are two different sets of safety requirements, with a stricter one that only applies in peacetime (e.g. max speeds, minimum distances bewteeen vehicles, requirements to use ear protection and pretty much every single safety requirement there is)

Re: GM’s CEO Offers to Make Ventilators in WWII-Style Mobilization

#420

Post by chapium »

babesh wrote: post #166
chapium wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hospitals are hamstrung by their bureaucracies and financial policies. The best thing that can be done is an independent assessment of need and start "airdropping" supplies if a shortage is apparent.

Did no one bother to actually read the article? It says that there can potentially be a shortage but that there isn't currently. The fed has 13000 and the military an extra 2000. It currently seems more hamstrung by bureaucracy or lack of information. Hospitals have to request their state governments which have to then request them from the federal government. Only one state has requested them so far. "“We have recei…

Read article and assumed the hospitals aren't anticipating the need for whatever their reasons are. We just barely have enough vents in hospitals as is and they are in use.
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