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GM’s CEO Offers to Make Ventilators in WWII-Style Mobilization

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Re: GM’s CEO Offers to Make Ventilators in WWII-Style Mobilization

#291

Post by fermienrico »

ironmagma wrote: post #274
spectramax wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are Americans, we have gone through a lot in this country. In dire times, when humans get together to solve problems - I get goosebumps and tears in my eyes. In our normal day to day life, consuming media and seeing how fragmented this nation has become - incidents like this bring us all together to fight a common enemy. We should have the onus and the courage to help everyone in the world, not just the US. Our im…

It's times like this that make us so great. We've been riding on success for so long, it's been easy to forget how we have a goal in the world and that our existence is not guaranteed.

Definitely, most city dwellers I know do not feel proud of being an American, but they only choose to do so to avoid nationalism and patriotism from clouding their judgement - not because of the lack of the American spirit.

The American spirit is always there. They will always seek truth, keep a tab on the government and fearlessly criticize authority, value freedom of speech, liberty and freedom of press. This isn't unique to US, but to Canada, EU, UK, Switzerland, India, Japan, Korea, Australia, New Zealand and many other democracies around the world.

Re: GM’s CEO Offers to Make Ventilators in WWII-Style Mobilization

#292

Post by leereeves »

bildung wrote: post #282
leereeves wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The world's response was late because the Chinese government lied about the virus. Just two months ago the WHO, relying on China's statements, said: > Preliminary investigations conducted by the Chinese authorities have found no clear evidence of human-to-human transmission of the novel #coronavirus (2019-nCoV) identified in #Wuhan, #China[1] Two months ago the WHO said they didn't have clear evidence coronavirus was…

The blame game isn't helping at all. This is literally the type of situation where the concept of blameless post mortem, an idea often praised here, originates from. The focus of everyone, regardless of nationality, should now be on solving problems of the present and helping where they can.

Most of us aren't medical professionals or researchers, so there's not really a lot we can do to help, other than stay home and avoid spreading the virus.

Meanwhile, life goes on, including the usual political discussions. And those are important. They shouldn't end. The actions of our leaders should be scrutinized intensely at all times, even during a crisis.

"The blame game" is not a productive term for holding national leaders accountable for their actions.

Re: GM’s CEO Offers to Make Ventilators in WWII-Style Mobilization

#293

Post by simion314 »

leereeves wrote: post #236
simion314 wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>That's not about shifting blame from the US government. That's placing the blame where it belongs. But for some reason Japan and South Korea were informed and handled the problem, so what conspiracy explains this? Japan has good spies? Japan has supernatural future prediction technology?

> But for some reason Japan and South Korea were informed and handled the problem, so what conspiracy explains this? Japan has good spies? Japan has supernatural future prediction technology? According to the timeline of Japan's response in [1], the US responded at the same time as Japan. Their first countermeasure listed in [1] was a travel restriction enacted on February 3, the same time as US restrictions[2,3] 1:…

Thank you for the response, I am so confused when people try so hard to shift blame so their favorite tribe avoids any responsability. Like 2 weeks back this people were trying to say that is just like flu and today when this does not work then China is at fault because this is worse then flu and China should have done a better job handling it in internally, and also convincing this skeptics that is worse then flu to also handle it better in their own tribe. I assume that at the point you discover that is worse then flu you need to have more then one data pont, so the virus has spread already - if skeptics won't believe you what can you do? the skeptics were just waiting for more numbers.

I am not defending China, just trying to address the blame shifting and maybe convince some people that the next one can originate in their own country and we all need to be better prepared.

Re: GM’s CEO Offers to Make Ventilators in WWII-Style Mobilization

#294

Post by tomp »

leereeves wrote: post #205
thereare5lights wrote: post #67

> There are going to be a lot of comments about how we messed up, wasted time, etc., but they miss the point. That, ironically, misses the point of the existing comments about how we wasted time. By wasting time, lots of people are going to die that didn't need to die. None of that has to do with mobilization itself or the issues that we run into during mobilization, it has to do with when we decided to mobilize.

The world's response was late because the Chinese government lied about the virus. Just two months ago the WHO, relying on China's statements, said: > Preliminary investigations conducted by the Chinese authorities have found no clear evidence of human-to-human transmission of the novel #coronavirus (2019-nCoV) identified in #Wuhan, #China[1] Two months ago the WHO said they didn't have clear evidence coronavirus was…

Believing a proven notorious liar is your own fault.

Look at actions, not words. China locking down Wuhan should have been enough of a warning sign. But realistically, even now most people & governments are complacent (few passed martial law).

Re: GM’s CEO Offers to Make Ventilators in WWII-Style Mobilization

#295

Post by WalterBright »

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #223
WalterBright wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We keep a MASSIVE oversupply surplus for the military at all times. If that's OK, why not do that for health related issues too? When your military isn't strong enough, you get fire, rape, pillage, death, starvation and epidemics, and people really really don't like that.

Most people would accept that epidemics (let alone pandemics) are bad enough on their own. Many people would say bad enough to avoid a Just In Time approach to public health.

Maybe most people would. But I've heard first hand accounts of how devastating it is to lose a war, and I'll go with that.

May I recommend "Savage Continent":

https://www.amazon.com/Savage-Continent-Europe-Aftermath-Wor...

It was so terrible I abandoned reading it.

Re: GM’s CEO Offers to Make Ventilators in WWII-Style Mobilization

#296

Post by omar_a1 »

NohatCoder wrote: post #258
malandrew wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because they are not the bottleneck. Intensivists that can operate the vents are the bottleneck https://sccm.org/Blog/March-2020/United-States-Resource-Avai...

That is some bureaucratic nonsense. Setting up and maintaining a ventilator is not rocket science, you can train other staff to do that job pretty quickly. Ancillary tasks may suffer from staff shortage, but if you need one, getting a ventilator and minimal care is a lot better than not getting a ventilator.

I don't know how to operate a ventilator, and have zero medical training, but I'm getting frustrated by the comments claiming medicine is trivially easy.

Even using a syringe or blood draw on a patient is something one needs certification to do properly. That isn't bureaucratic nonsense. Having worked with syringes and sterile technique, there are so many ways you can give your patient an infection or otherwise cause them life-altering complications if you don't know what you're doing, even for the actually trivial techniques. Operating a ventilator incorrectly will result in death. Likely a grisly one, as incorrect pressure differentials and human lungs are not a good combination.

Now that doesn't mean we need to stick to these bureaucratic rules as they are for this situation, but the people on here advocating for trying complicated medical procedures while knowing fuck all about medicine (or even biology) really need to take a step back and take an inventory of what they don't know, and can realistically expect to accomplish with neither the technical knowledge nor manual dexterity of a trained clinician. A YouTube video and a technical manual aren't going to cut it, folks.

Re: GM’s CEO Offers to Make Ventilators in WWII-Style Mobilization

#297

Post by neuronic »

leereeves wrote: post #205
thereare5lights wrote: post #67

> There are going to be a lot of comments about how we messed up, wasted time, etc., but they miss the point. That, ironically, misses the point of the existing comments about how we wasted time. By wasting time, lots of people are going to die that didn't need to die. None of that has to do with mobilization itself or the issues that we run into during mobilization, it has to do with when we decided to mobilize.

The world's response was late because the Chinese government lied about the virus. Just two months ago the WHO, relying on China's statements, said: > Preliminary investigations conducted by the Chinese authorities have found no clear evidence of human-to-human transmission of the novel #coronavirus (2019-nCoV) identified in #Wuhan, #China[1] Two months ago the WHO said they didn't have clear evidence coronavirus was…

It doesn't matter anymore. The only thing that matters to the world right now is how we go forward from today on.

And Republicans are a hindrance in the effort, through and through.

Re: GM’s CEO Offers to Make Ventilators in WWII-Style Mobilization

#298

Post by leereeves »

bildung wrote: post #287
leereeves wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But for some reason Japan and South Korea were informed and handled the problem, so what conspiracy explains this? Japan has good spies? Japan has supernatural future prediction technology? According to the timeline of Japan's response in [1], the US responded at the same time as Japan. Their first countermeasure listed in [1] was a travel restriction enacted on February 3, the same time as US restrictions[2,3] 1:…

Japans response was profoundly different. This is how airport arrivals were handled in Jan 24 in Japan: http://www.asahi.com/ajw/articles/AJ202001270041.html This is how arrivals in the US were handled a few days ago, this hall practially is a breeding ground for new infections: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/15/us/airports-coronavirus.h... My point is NOT Japan good USA bad, I just want to show that there was the o…

What exactly are we supposed to see in those links?

I see two photos of people standing close together. Neither group is practicing social distancing.

The Japanese are wearing masks (not N95 masks) whose effectiveness is still being debated, but that's about custom, not government response.

The photo from America shows a bigger room, but I suspect that's just a choice of photo and Japanese airports had big rooms full of people in January too. Perhaps not, but certainly a photo of a small room doesn't disprove the existence of big rooms.

Re: GM’s CEO Offers to Make Ventilators in WWII-Style Mobilization

#300

Post by Gravityloss »

vidarh wrote: post #273
malandrew wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not that we’re bad at training medical personnel. It’s that the AMA acts as a cartel to limit the number of physicians train to keep income high. We just need to allow more people into medical schools and make more residencies available.

The problem with this is that until we have better means to train people without exposing them to real situations, increasing the number without lowering the overall skill level is an incredibly hard problem.

There's no shortage of people with ailments... A lot just go untreated or are queuing for a long time.
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