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Why N95 masks are hard to make

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Re: Why N95 masks are hard to make

#321

Post by mehrdadn »

afiori wrote: post #317
mehrdadn wrote: post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 3M and Prestige Ameritech are the only companies with the ability to manufacturing N95 masks in the US from US sourced materials . I'm confused about your italics. Why does it matter where the source materials you give them comes from? i.e. Why would other manufacturers in the US be only able to manufacture masks from non -US-sourced-materials, but fail on US-sourced materials? Is there something defective with US-…

It could be a matter of having the whole process happen in the US. In the sense that those 2 companies are the only one that have sufficient domestic supply chain for production, while all other companies need to rely on import.

But if that's the case then you could get source materials from one of these companies and give them to another manufacturer who normally ships from overseas, right? Like I'm saying in that case the issue seems to be lack of sufficient source materials in the US, not US manufacturing capability?

Re: Why N95 masks are hard to make

#322

Post by doodlebugging »

Engineering-MD wrote: post #227
tim333 wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apparently salt on the mask kills viruses https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/01/170105160228.h... https://www.businessinsider.com/mask-coated-in-salt-neutrali... I was going to DIY. Soak in brine then dry the thing.

I believe it also recommends the addition of a surfactant to make small crystals and a more even coating

I read the same thing. Glad to see others investigating their options.

I'm not sure a DIYer could accomplish this without compromising the filter media unless there were kits available or a crystal clear guide for the task.

I realize that you can just wash the mask to remove the salt and surfactant and in the process any pathogens will be killed by the salt and soap. However, if you have to wait on this to dry between uses since the washing will fill some percentage of the pore spaces with water then you haven't accomplished as much as you could have if you had simply microwaved the mask in a boil-in bag allowing the steam to do the same work. As a bonus, people already know how to use microwaves and most have them at home.

I'm not trying to say that salt and surfactant doesn't work, only to say that this is better accomplished in a controlled environment with equipment that can insure that crystal size is controlled and filter media is relatively unaffected.

Re: Why N95 masks are hard to make

#323

Post by wazoox »

Totoradio wrote: post #260
wazoox wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

300 to 800 factories yearly closed their doors in France since the introduction of the Euro. Italy faces a lesser but still steep industrial decline. In the meanwhile, industrial output boomed in the German hinterland of Eastern Europe.

> 300 to 800 factories yearly closed their doors in France since the introduction of the Euro. Have you got a source on that? The data I can find [1] says 600 total have closed between 2009 and 2018. [1] https://bfmbusiness.bfmtv.com/entreprise/depuis-janvier-il-y... from this source: https://fr.slideshare.net/dcousquer/2018-un-ralentissement-e... , slide 5.

Here, 900 factories closed from 2009 to 2011: https://www.lemonde.fr/economie/article/2011/12/28/pres-de-9...

This has been more or less the trend from 2001 to 2016. There was a slight upturn for 2017-2018, then it went down again in 2019.

Re: Why N95 masks are hard to make

#324

Post by raxxorrax »

sgift wrote: post #301
raxxorrax wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, that is what I was hinting at. Of course they could lie in the interest of a possible business relationship, but I see no evidence of this. I wonder how the rumor started.

The majority owner of the company said it is the case and the German government said they are discussing counter measures. This tweet is damage control and tries to use a bit of weasel wording to make it look better: There never was a formal offer, so we can just ignore informal talks, right?

Maybe. Perhaps it is a PR-move to bring the company into the spotlight. Perhaps it was Trump wanting to be seen as capable. Perhaps we will never know.

Re: Why N95 masks are hard to make

#325

Post by doodlebugging »

mattkrause wrote: post #306
doodlebugging wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the first articles that I read mentioned the use of autoclaves, essentially steamers used for sterilizing surgical tools, etc. I think it was a NIOSH article. These are already in use in hospitals. That led me to the article I linked about using microwaves. Microwave ovens excite water molecules to cook and the creation of steam from the cooking process should kill the pathogens. I have family members who need…

An autoclave is more like a pressure cooker than a steamer. You need temperatures well in excess of 100 degrees Celsius to reliably kill everything, especially bacterial spores (which, admittedly, are not the major issue here). To do so, autoclave use high pressure steam (121C at 15 psi) for long enough that everything reaches that temperature. A microwave won’t even get close to that, though it can disinfect, rather…

Thanks for the information. I agree that home microwaves heat unevenly but I think that is one of the reasons that the authors in the article went with bagging the masks. The steam would be trapped in the bags and the masks would get treatment at a more consistent temperature making the process more effective at killing the pathogens.

I think that microwaving the masks accomplishes the task using tools that an ordinary person may already have on hand and tools which require almost no training. UV sterilization is complicated by the need to avoid exposure to UV light and the fact that most people don't have a suitable UV lamp available. Hospitals may already have those tools on hand and in that case they probably have trained users who can disinfect masks with them. That seems to be the best way for them to reuse masks.

Re: Why N95 masks are hard to make

#326

Post by _2d30 »

sneak wrote: post #256
_2d30 wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A nation is not a useful or even approximate proxy for values. I bet you anything that if you polled Saudi Arabians and asked "Would you be willing to be ruled by a monarch?" and then do the same for Americans, you'll get wildly different results. If you are willing to make the bet large enough, I will go to relevant polling organizations to pay for one to be conducted.

> I bet you anything that if you polled Saudi Arabians and asked "Would you be willing to be ruled by a monarch?" and then do the same for Americans, you'll get wildly different results. To my point, you'd get the same results in both places: some people in each country would say yes, and some other people in each country would say no. Assuming one's ideology based on their geography is entirely outmoded in the age o…

If your point is "a variety of opinion can exist everywhere" then sure but that's not great evidence that nations aren't an "approximate proxy for values". If it's 90-10 in one country and 10-90 in another it's clearly a proxy and not a great argument.

Re: Why N95 masks are hard to make

#327

Post by ardy42 »

mehrdadn wrote: post #321
afiori wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It could be a matter of having the whole process happen in the US. In the sense that those 2 companies are the only one that have sufficient domestic supply chain for production, while all other companies need to rely on import.

But if that's the case then you could get source materials from one of these companies and give them to another manufacturer who normally ships from overseas, right? Like I'm saying in that case the issue seems to be lack of sufficient source materials in the US, not US manufacturing capability?

But in any case, the supply chains of companies that use overseas materials have been disrupted. With effort, they could probably switch to using materials from a domestic manufacturer, but those manufacturers may not have the capacity to satisfy the increased demand. Per the OP, it seems like the limiting factor in production is melt-blown fabric.

Re: Why N95 masks are hard to make

#328

Post by toyg »

wazoox wrote: post #320
toyg wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apart from the arguable “yearly”, that’s just efficiency in practice. When you look at the US, you see the same thing: there isn’t a large movie industry in each state, but there is one Hollywood (and one Broadway for theatre). Attracting all talent and capital from the entire continent allows for a level of economies of scale and quality refinement that makes it absolutely dominant worldwide. The same process happen…

That's efficiency from a certain perspective . That's this wonderful efficiency that makes the world extremely sensitive to the current Covid-19 situation. That's the very opposite of antifragility . We need resilience, too. This has absolutely nothing to do with isolationism or tribalism. Gee, I hate this sort of strawman argument. Our globalised, ultra-lean, efficient world was built on a humongous influx of fossil…

Efficiency and resiliency are different things. If you want resiliency, you plan accordingly - left to its own devices, the capitalist market will always go for ultimate efficiency, that's a primary property of the system. This is not the Soviet Union deciding to do potatoes in one country and cars in another, people take smaller decisions that aggregate up to certain phenomenons. If you don't like those phenomenons, you have to intervene pretty radically.

> This has absolutely nothing to do with isolationism or tribalism.

This has absolutely all to do with tribalism. If industries had closed in France and opened in Belgium, making them operatively indistinguishable from French industries for all intents and purposes (as distance is negligible and half of them basically speak the same language), people would still go on about lacking French industry. Why? Because Belgium is conceptually "not France". Nobody complains (anymore) about a single factory serving an entire country, why should we worry about a single factory serving half a continent? Do you seriously think you should have a widget-making factory in every city or town, for each different type of widget...? "OMG the world might end, we need to be able to make Gucci shoes in every town!"

> fossil fuels and other limited resources that destroyed our climate

I do not disagree, but that's something that effectively started 300 years ago and is not going to end anytime soon, unless you enjoy riding horses and going to bed with the sun. We will find alternatives (in some areas we already have, effectively; they are just not equally distributed yet).

Re: Why N95 masks are hard to make

#329

Post by axaxs »

dfc wrote: post #283
axaxs wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because to me, the consumer, I can't think of a single time automation replacing humans has been better. Self checkouts suck for anything more than a handful of items, especially compared to a well trained cashier/bagger combo. Automated call/IVR systems are hypertension inducing bad. ATMs are no replacement for tellers for most situations that bring one to the bank. I'm not a complete luddite. In many systems, speci…

I am really surprised you can't think of one time automation beats manual work. I could sit here all day: Municipal water service versus hand pumped well E-ZPass versus tollbooth attendant. Festool Domino biscuit jointer versus me doing it by hand Sheetrock versus plaster and lathe

Fair points. I'd consider 1,3,and 4 more behind the scenes, lumped in with manufacturing. But you definitely got me on EZPass.

Re: Why N95 masks are hard to make

#330

Post by ckcheng »

olejorgenb wrote: post #253
ckcheng wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stockpiling is good as part of the preparation but isn't enough. e.g. "Five months worth of supplies were used by one hospital in six days" [1] How's any country supposed to stockpile enough at that rate? And stockpiles require upkeep and evergreening. Otherwise things like masks eventually expire [2]. Upkeep costs money too. [1] https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politic... [2] https://nationalpost…

I've seen this a couple of places, but no-one has explained why the masks expire? Also - it should be possible to design simple protocols to rotate the stock properly. Storage costs due to increased space is unavoidable ofc.

I found: "Over time, components such as the straps and nose bridge material may degrade, which can affect the quality of the fit and seal" [1]

Also, some filters are constructed from charged fibers and electrostatic attraction helps in the filtering [2]. I wonder if that electrostatic attraction can be lost in some way, which would help explain the expiry date.

Anyway, [1] also says using expired masks may be considered in a crisis, best for training and fit testing though.

[1] https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/hcp/respirators-st...

[2] https://blogs.cdc.gov/niosh-science-blog/2009/10/14/n95/

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