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U.S. govt, tech industry discuss using location data to combat coronavirus

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Re: U.S. govt, tech industry discuss using location data to combat coronavirus

#101
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know, maybe it is. Maybe the politics of our world simply are that cynical and won't allow for such a thing to exist. But I guess I'm hoping it isn't. I'm trying to imagine how a non-authoritarian institution would work; it wouldn't have the "authority" to compel anyone to turn over their data, but just about everyone would have enough trust in the community and its decision making process to be okay with it.…

What if information could be revoked? Imagine the government suspects me in some investigation. I give them a key that gives them all information about me and my recent activities. Then once some period elapses, I revoke that key and they no longer have any of that information. Nor, of course, were they able to copy or independently distribute it in any way when they had it. This is probably pure fantasy, but if ther…

Every time I think about this issue, the closest I can get is a distributed world of APIs, where everyone hosts their own data [however], and for any service whether it be government, commercial, work, friendly, etc, the entity's agent makes an API request and gets a result. But that result isn't the data - it's a privacy-focused result that can be used in place of the data.

The simple example would be "I'd like to send indigochill a gift", which would send a request to your API (with some notification for you to approve or deny receiving said package) and return an id that could be written or printed on an envelope. That id is unique and the mail service would scan the id and the package would be routed. And the mail carrier would scan the id and get an actual address (or a blip on their map of the block or something). Nobody along the way has learned your address or name or anything - nor do they know my address, which is just another unique id.

There are some very interesting implications in that data can become stale so quickly. If you approved of receiving the package but were out of town for the week, the package could be routed directly to you without any interaction whatsoever. Nobody along the way would know the difference between your home or your hotel room.

The same could easily be done for lots of personal data. Phone numbers, email addresses, etc. All your shopping history could be stored on your own private data store and the local grocery stores would send out a mailer "Address this mailer to all people in the neighborhood who have purchased discounted burgers in the past month". The store doesn't know who is getting the flyer, but the people who would be likely to use a coupon for buying burgers would get a notification and likely go buy some burgers on sale - or reject the notification and not be bothered - to the savings of the store and the recipient.

Social Media could still exist with this sort of thing but the services would be querying engines rather than the creepy data warehouses that they've become.

This of course gets significantly harder with the queries this article is about, but the idea is the same. Instead of "give me everyone's location for the past month", the request would be "give me the anonymized ids of people who have been to x locations for x amount of time within x amount of space between one another". The response would provide data that could be used for the purpose in question, but the underlying data remains private.

I've been pondering this idea on random occasion for about 15 years, but I don't care enough about it to make it my life's work. But I sure would like to live in a world with that level of data ownership and privacy.

Re: U.S. govt, tech industry discuss using location data to combat coronavirus

#102

From https://www.technologyreview.com/s/615370/coronavirus-pandem... > We don’t know exactly what this new future looks like, of course. But one can imagine a world in which, to get on a flight, perhaps you’ll have to be signed up to a service that tracks your movements via your phone. The airline wouldn’t be able to see where you’d gone, but it would get an alert if you’d been close to known infected people or disea…

OK so people who don't carry their phone everywhere - is there no place for them in that world?

Re: U.S. govt, tech industry discuss using location data to combat coronavirus

#103
post #75
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve regressed to my cynical default in the past few days, but “a large institution that I would trust with this authority” sounds like pure fantasy.

I agree but it's also the most compelling fantasy in human history.

I disagree that "large" authorities could be fantastic. Authority, like most things, is better when smaller. For one thing, a small authority is more likely to notice those people subject to it.

Re: U.S. govt, tech industry discuss using location data to combat coronavirus

#105
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree but it's also the most compelling fantasy in human history.

I disagree that "large" authorities could be fantastic. Authority, like most things, is better when smaller. For one thing, a small authority is more likely to notice those people subject to it.

Just to be clear, I don't subscribe to it. But I have noticed that pretty much any time anyone has a good idea, their next idea is to force everyone to do it.

Re: U.S. govt, tech industry discuss using location data to combat coronavirus

#106

They already have a mechanism to do this -- it's called a John Doe (wiretap) warrant. What they really want is full take -- the complete location movements of the US population. This would be useful for COVID-19 tracking ... and authoritarian control.

When they pass the laws that require us to keep our powered-on phones on our persons at all times, we'll know that they've perfected the Angel Teeth.

Re: U.S. govt, tech industry discuss using location data to combat coronavirus

#108
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know, maybe it is. Maybe the politics of our world simply are that cynical and won't allow for such a thing to exist. But I guess I'm hoping it isn't. I'm trying to imagine how a non-authoritarian institution would work; it wouldn't have the "authority" to compel anyone to turn over their data, but just about everyone would have enough trust in the community and its decision making process to be okay with it.…

Personally, I think the only way we will retake our privacy is when hobby level, readily available hardware, software, and 3d printable parts enable hobbyists to create “good enough” phones with encryption and privacy options that won’t exist in mass market phones. Then an enterprising startup can deliver marked-up, preassembled devices, then people might have privacy again.

You can already buy a Blackphone. Almost no-one does.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackphone

Re: U.S. govt, tech industry discuss using location data to combat coronavirus

#109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if information could be revoked? Imagine the government suspects me in some investigation. I give them a key that gives them all information about me and my recent activities. Then once some period elapses, I revoke that key and they no longer have any of that information. Nor, of course, were they able to copy or independently distribute it in any way when they had it. This is probably pure fantasy, but if ther…

Every time I think about this issue, the closest I can get is a distributed world of APIs, where everyone hosts their own data [however], and for any service whether it be government, commercial, work, friendly, etc, the entity's agent makes an API request and gets a result. But that result isn't the data - it's a privacy-focused result that can be used in place of the data. The simple example would be "I'd like to s…

Sounds like an interesting possible world that might one day get built.

In the meantime, sounds like most likely outcome is the government hits CTRL C, CTRL V on Facebook/google’s user database and starts a China/Tencent style SQL dB on every American.

Or even more likely, this already exists and now the government can start using it more openly.

Re: U.S. govt, tech industry discuss using location data to combat coronavirus

#110
post #71

Many governments already track and save all communication in a big graph database - in order to know who communicates with whom - so they can find "terrorists". It's just that in some places "terrorist" means people, journalists, etc, that oppose the corrupt government. So the government already know who communicates with who. And now they also want to feed everyone's location to that database, so they can know every…

A terrorist is whoever the government says they are, I think it's time for us to wake up to the reality of things.
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