Earlier quoted context omitted.
All the workers being replaced by automation and having to rely on "gig economy" work could pursue manufacturing instead. We have the workforce. We can pay workers livable wages and give them meaningful work. Cost of goods could be reduced through greater efficiency. Research into robotics and automation could fuel a new decade of American growth.
"They were replaced by automation" is a vile anti-worker canard. The manufacturing jobs went to humans in China, not robots.
Why N95 masks are hard to make
171–180 of 363 posts
Re: Why N95 masks are hard to make
#172Earlier quoted context omitted.
The problem is that values are not evenly distributed within a country. A nation is not a useful or even approximate proxy for values. Most countries have a pretty big chunk of people in them that would be fine with a religious autocracy that enslaves those who don’t conform to the majority, the US included. It’s the same in every country. There are, for example, a whole bunch of people in the US who are fine with so…
>A nation is not a useful or even approximate proxy for values. What? Of course it is. Even if you went one level down, states in the United States itself are excellent proxies for the mean values that are held in a particular region. If your point is that every geographic region has groups of people on the fringe, then yeah fine. That's true. But that doesn't mean anything with regard to the usefulness of what makes…
Re: Why N95 masks are hard to make
#173Earlier quoted context omitted.
All the workers being replaced by automation and having to rely on "gig economy" work could pursue manufacturing instead. We have the workforce. We can pay workers livable wages and give them meaningful work. Cost of goods could be reduced through greater efficiency. Research into robotics and automation could fuel a new decade of American growth.
>We have the workforce. That's the problem - you don't. By definition, the kind of efficient, highly-automated manufacturing you're thinking of doesn't need many unskilled or semi-skilled workers, but it does need skilled and experienced engineers and machinists. It needs a massive and complex ecosystem of suppliers and support. The depletion of America's industrial base has created a massive skills gap that would ta…
Manufacturing is a dirty, dangerous, manual business. I think the small guys will tell you that environmental regulations killed manufacturing in the west, not labour costs. We've been living in lala land with it all offshore, out of sight. If US/EU-level environmental regulations got applied and enforced globally, we'd be sent back to the stone age. Not to mention the litigation risks, intellectual property risks, trade union cartels, needing to hire an electrician to change a lightbulb, etc. (All added up, it's hopelessly calcified, but whatever...)
Don't get me wrong - I really care about the environment - but most regs here are just to look good, not actually about stuff that matters. And pushing it into the third world, where they don't protect the environment at all, is counterproductive.
Re: Why N95 masks are hard to make
#174Earlier quoted context omitted.
Because to me, the consumer, I can't think of a single time automation replacing humans has been better. Self checkouts suck for anything more than a handful of items, especially compared to a well trained cashier/bagger combo. Automated call/IVR systems are hypertension inducing bad. ATMs are no replacement for tellers for most situations that bring one to the bank. I'm not a complete luddite. In many systems, speci…
I guess self-checkout is a matter of taste and/or opinion. Personally, I prefer it at the grocery store when I have the choice.
In most cases, the customer-facing self checkout systems are objectively much slower and more cumbersome than the manned checkout systems that require some training and practice to use correctly. Paid cashiers never have to slow down their scanning because of a spurious reading from a scale in the bagging area. They get real keyboards to interact with the computer, and user interfaces that are far more responsive than the typical touchscreen UI's update latency.
Re: Why N95 masks are hard to make
#175Earlier quoted context omitted.
The problem is that values are not evenly distributed within a country. A nation is not a useful or even approximate proxy for values. Most countries have a pretty big chunk of people in them that would be fine with a religious autocracy that enslaves those who don’t conform to the majority, the US included. It’s the same in every country. There are, for example, a whole bunch of people in the US who are fine with so…
>A nation is not a useful or even approximate proxy for values. What? Of course it is. Even if you went one level down, states in the United States itself are excellent proxies for the mean values that are held in a particular region. If your point is that every geographic region has groups of people on the fringe, then yeah fine. That's true. But that doesn't mean anything with regard to the usefulness of what makes…
I don't think those are any more practically useful, correlated, or appropriate than the assemblage, unless you go down to states where the population numbers are so low as to be less than a really meaningful statistical universe.
Populous states such as California and New York do not have anything remotely resembling universal buy-in on important values. Even within places like San Francisco, a single city/metro, you have a wide array of mutually exclusive value positions.
As soon as you get people together in large groups, you are going to have a large diversity in values and priorities. These civil perimeters have very little utility; I think people just like mentally personifying groups/nations so that they seem easier to reason about, regardless of the fact that it's wickedly inaccurate and not actually useful for that purpose at all. This is reflected in the widespread practice of synecdoche/metonymy.
China is a perfect example of this, as is California.
(TBH, I think it's a leftover from serfdom, where the lords/regional owners literally held physical dominion over the persons, labor, and travel rights of the people who lived within their borders. The Pythons' sketch on the matter from MPATHG accurately sums up my opinions on even thoroughly modern political assemblages.)
Personally, I reject the validity of all group identities that are based on sets containing more than a million or so humans. They're just not useful for reasoning about the group constituents, at all.
> But that doesn't mean anything with regard to the usefulness of what makes up a nation or its borders - which are of course proving quite useful during a pandemic.
Ah! Now we see the violence inherent in the system!
Re: Why N95 masks are hard to make
#176Earlier quoted context omitted.
they're not nearly as expensive each if you buy a box of them. I think it used to cost like $12 for 2 or $16 for 10, speaking in the before-time of course.
Eh, not in the US. I bought a 10 pack of 3M N95s last April in anticipation of forest fires that had screwed up air quality the last two years. They were $40 for the 10, so roughly the price of a latte per day. Fortunately, the fires didn't happen, so I now have 10 masks, but I have absolutely no idea when/how the right time to bring use them is, and I'm doubtful that 10 would make the difference (my local healthy co…
Re: Why N95 masks are hard to make
#177Re: Why N95 masks are hard to make
#178Surgical and homemade masks are much better than nothing. And by better than nothing we mean reasonably effective. Going into close contact with a person who has a known transmissible respiratory illness? N95 is minimum if you are a professional. And get your union to scream bloody murder if you are not allowed this essential safety equipment, and put complaints in writing so your heirs can later sue to oblivion. Try…
I think people should be allowed to wear masks, but I think that a lot of this information, including a very full vision about what's going to happen in the next 6 months to 1 year, needs to come from CDC and other major institutions. Everyone on the ground having little ad hoc debates doesn't seem like it will converge onto a nationally organized solution. The fact that this is happening is symptomatic of the lack o…
For me it was mind boggling when two days ago HN acted like the smart consensus was "masks do nothing, they are useless and don't wear it".
It is not just "little ad hoc debates". It is also clashing between cultures I guess. There are people down threads actively convincing others not to wear masks and implying you are uneducated if you do. Unless that side of discussion stops spreading it, people who got the "wear masks for others and yourself" advice should be allowed to state their case too.
I dont really know where "dont wear masks" meme is coming from, but it seems to be against everything I hear in my country. Person you are answering to might not be American either.
Re: Why N95 masks are hard to make
#179Earlier quoted context omitted.
I agree that the mask could be contaminated. In fact, I would hope that the person wearing the mask has a good reason to wear it, either someone in their household is sick and they are protecting themselves or they are sick and they are protecting everyone else who is home with them. I think it is a bad idea for everyone to wear a mask when there is no threat to their health. With people furloughed home it is likely…
Agreed. The use case I am hoping to help solve for is health care workers (eg. Nursing home aides) who have a very limited supply of N95 masks that they wind up having to re-use for multiple days / weeks at a stretch. If they have access to a quick affective way to sterilize them without ruining them (I like the microwave idea too) then they can stay healthier, and their patients can stay healthier.
A filter mask becomes more efficient as time passes due to blockage of infiltration/exfiltration paths. In this fashion, an N95 mask degrades to an N99 level mask and it becomes more difficult for the user to get enough air across the filter media to support life so they end up needing a new mask that has less restriction.
As the user wears the mask, most of the blockage and increase in filtering efficiency will occur on the face side of the mask and will be a result of condensation of droplets from the user's respiration. The filter media will become blocked from the inside out. There will be little if any measurable restriction added by the pathogen load of the unfiltered air on the outside of the mask. The distribution of pathogens in the air or the dust load would need to be pretty high for the outside of the mask to ever cause the mask to be restricted.
The main problem with the outside of the mask will be one of accumulation of pathogens on the outside.
I believe that this is the case for use of a mask by an uninfected person.
If the mask user is infected then the mask still becomes blocked on the face side of the mask, increasing its filtering efficiency, but that side also contains the pathogen load that that mask needs to prevent escaping into the room air.
Since the blockage in any case will be mainly from condensation and not from any biological load or dust load then it should be a simple matter to sterilize the masks in a microwave with a small amount of water to create steam. It may even be that the breath condensed on the mask will be sufficient.
I doubt in any case that a pathogen can pass through a mask and I will tell you why.
The path of infection for most people wearing a mask is mostly likely to be infection due to an ill-fitted mask that allows air movement with no filtering such as through hair, or in small spots where a good seal is not possible.
Now the why - filter media must have porosity and permeability. It is designed to create a tortuous path through the media so that anything moving in the connected air spaces has a high probably of being trapped in a void. If there are lots of twists and turns the resistance to flow increases (geologists call it the formation factor - a measure of the tortuosity of the path through the media) and turbulence causes an increase in the likelihood that a particle will contact the inside of the pore path and become trapped. Think of it like water in a river. As the river winds across the landscape, there are points in the stream where flow is weaker and the particle load settles out to form sandbars. There are also points in the stream where the current is faster and larger particles can pass.
The path through filter media is the same. When something encounters an area of low air velocity it becomes stuck. When turbulence increases it becomes more likely to collide with the sides and become stuck. Most of the pathogen load will likely be found very close to the source side. I don't expect much to be able to penetrate to the center of the mask.
That is also why condensation ends up rendering the mask useless. Water droplets coalesce and eventually you have blocked too many of the potential paths through the filter media.
Anyway, this got long winded. Sorry.
I hope some of this makes sense and if anyone has anything to add or discuss hit me up.
Re: Why N95 masks are hard to make
#180Earlier quoted context omitted.
This[0] article goes over recommendations for extended use, reuse, and risks. It also has a healthy list of references, some of which are by Fisher et al., the author of the paper you linked. Most masks have a metal tab bending over the bridge of the nose, as well as metal staples for the elastic bands, which would prevent you from microwaving. Cartridge type filters would work though. [0] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.go…
"as well as metal staples for the elastic bands, which would prevent you from microwaving" My microwave works fine with metal inside. Would only be a problem for some people.