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U.S. govt, tech industry discuss using location data to combat coronavirus

washingtonpost.com

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Re: U.S. govt, tech industry discuss using location data to combat coronavirus

#41

Post by ddmma »

dredmorbius wrote: post #31
ddmma wrote: post #21

‘in moments of crisis, people are willing to hand over a great deal of power to anyone who claims to have a magic cure—whether the crisis is a financial meltdown or, as the Bush administration would later show, a terrorist attack’ (Naomi Klein, The Shock Doctrine)

Speaking of Klein, she'll need to add a few elements to her Pandemic Shock Doctrine script: https://www.commondreams.org/news/2020/03/17/we-know-script-...

The updated edition should contain a special chapter on the underground agenda from Davos or whatever G meetup

Re: U.S. govt, tech industry discuss using location data to combat coronavirus

#42

Post by bscphil »

guscost wrote: post #39
bscphil wrote: post #28

The interesting thing about ideas like this is that they reveal how authoritarianism during times of stability does a terrible amount of damage during times of crisis. This is the sort of problem that could be solved in a better world; collecting location data to find interactions between people would allow you to get them tested faster and prevent a disease from spreading. But it simply can't be done in this country…

I’ve regressed to my cynical default in the past few days, but “a large institution that I would trust with this authority” sounds like pure fantasy.

I don't know, maybe it is. Maybe the politics of our world simply are that cynical and won't allow for such a thing to exist. But I guess I'm hoping it isn't. I'm trying to imagine how a non-authoritarian institution would work; it wouldn't have the "authority" to compel anyone to turn over their data, but just about everyone would have enough trust in the community and its decision making process to be okay with it.

What I guess I'm asking is ... what if the organizations we built looked more like the WHO, and less like the CIA?

Re: U.S. govt, tech industry discuss using location data to combat coronavirus

#43

Post by teh_infallible »

bscphil wrote: post #42
guscost wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve regressed to my cynical default in the past few days, but “a large institution that I would trust with this authority” sounds like pure fantasy.

I don't know, maybe it is. Maybe the politics of our world simply are that cynical and won't allow for such a thing to exist. But I guess I'm hoping it isn't. I'm trying to imagine how a non-authoritarian institution would work; it wouldn't have the "authority" to compel anyone to turn over their data, but just about everyone would have enough trust in the community and its decision making process to be okay with it.…

Personally, I think the only way we will retake our privacy is when hobby level, readily available hardware, software, and 3d printable parts enable hobbyists to create “good enough” phones with encryption and privacy options that won’t exist in mass market phones.

Then an enterprising startup can deliver marked-up, preassembled devices, then people might have privacy again.

Re: U.S. govt, tech industry discuss using location data to combat coronavirus

#44

Post by rock_artist »

Israel started using cellphone tracking as of today. An in stable (transitional) government got an approval from the justice department. The tracking is based on location / cell data stored at the mobile operators and should be used for tracking people around a positive covid person to send text messages asking them to get into their home to a lock down for 14 days. Cellphone data is retrospective of course.

However, once asked to go home. Enforcement will used current location data.

Re: U.S. govt, tech industry discuss using location data to combat coronavirus

#45

Post by js8 »

Cynic in me thinks that this is a request from the richest people and other elites, who want to isolate themselves from the infected, all the while blocking policies and measures that would actually help them.

I also want to point out, there are low tech solutions to track and control coronavirus spread. Simply isolate infected or suspected people, not in their homes, but in a hospital built specially for the purpose. Chinese did that.

Whether this is preferable to mass surveillance is your choice. I think it has merits and is less authoritarian overall.

Re: U.S. govt, tech industry discuss using location data to combat coronavirus

#46

Post by vxNsr »

smaccona wrote: post #30

I have been somewhat conflicted/despairing about Taiwan’s response (only 77 cases and 1 death as of right now, 2020-Mar-17, despite reslly cloze ties with China and an almost equally early onset) since I read this: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2762689 a couple of weeks ago. Paragraph 2 is especially instructive. I have historically been dead against the type of cross referencing and identificatio…

Even if we gave the feds access to cell phone data and even if we allowed them to cross reference it with border points of entry, it would be useless. Cellphone data doesn’t have a common data entry with info you give at the border, additionally even if that part worked: we don’t have a single EHRS. So getting that info to the people that need it would require some sorta convoluted fax scheme. Basically, there’s nothing we can use from what Taiwan did so don’t feel bad about it. (also at this point it’s no longer being spread by ppl coming from outside, its ppl inside the country giving it to each other.) We need to do two things to be ready for the next pandemic.

1) Come up with a system for tracking it at points of entry.

2) Create a system and process for containment once it’s no longer contained.

Re: U.S. govt, tech industry discuss using location data to combat coronavirus

#47

Post by saurik »

teh_infallible wrote: post #43
bscphil wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know, maybe it is. Maybe the politics of our world simply are that cynical and won't allow for such a thing to exist. But I guess I'm hoping it isn't. I'm trying to imagine how a non-authoritarian institution would work; it wouldn't have the "authority" to compel anyone to turn over their data, but just about everyone would have enough trust in the community and its decision making process to be okay with it.…

Personally, I think the only way we will retake our privacy is when hobby level, readily available hardware, software, and 3d printable parts enable hobbyists to create “good enough” phones with encryption and privacy options that won’t exist in mass market phones. Then an enterprising startup can deliver marked-up, preassembled devices, then people might have privacy again.

The goalposts on "good enough" keep moving. When everyone else has a holographic direct-to-eye refraction display, people are going to be as disappointed in a 2020-level smartphone as people were with OpenMoko devices, which still had a pressure-sensitive touch screen with a plastic stylus when the iPhone has just come out with its relatively massive capacitive multitouch display.

Re: U.S. govt, tech industry discuss using location data to combat coronavirus

#48

Post by srcmap »

ddmma wrote: post #21

‘in moments of crisis, people are willing to hand over a great deal of power to anyone who claims to have a magic cure—whether the crisis is a financial meltdown or, as the Bush administration would later show, a terrorist attack’ (Naomi Klein, The Shock Doctrine)

Maybe law can be created to allow state/local government to collect and use such info when "declaration of local infectious deceases emergency" by state governor. Especially allow for department of public health to access the Google's Sensor Vault data in emergency situation.

I would support that BUT I also understand how that might open the "pandora's box" for all other government requests/laws like the existing geofencing warrant.

Re: U.S. govt, tech industry discuss using location data to combat coronavirus

#49

Post by oska »

smaccona wrote: post #30

I have been somewhat conflicted/despairing about Taiwan’s response (only 77 cases and 1 death as of right now, 2020-Mar-17, despite reslly cloze ties with China and an almost equally early onset) since I read this: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2762689 a couple of weeks ago. Paragraph 2 is especially instructive. I have historically been dead against the type of cross referencing and identificatio…

I've been posting that link in various comments on the web over the last week, it's a very interesting article. But Taiwan is not the US; they have shown a very healthy trend away from authoritarianism over the last 33 years since the lifting of Martial Law in 1987 (and the 40 years of 'White Terror' [1] that preceded it).

Also, on the question of authoritarianism, I think there is a case for greater tolerance of it during a defensive war, where a nation is battling for its survival. And I think a pandemic can be characterised as a defensive war against an invisible, completely merciless enemy. Not to say that blanket authoritarianism should be allowed but measures that make sense and help in the battle should be shown greater tolerance for a limited duration. Of course this is the whole idea behind (duration limited) emergency powers legislation. Going back to Taiwan, their 40 years of martial law also shows the risk of abuse, however I would describe the KMT as an invading power, not a native, somewhat trusted authority (as is more the case with their present, democratically elected government).

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Terror_(Taiwan)

Re: U.S. govt, tech industry discuss using location data to combat coronavirus

#50

Post by alfiedotwtf »

didibus wrote: post #35
tempestn wrote: post #26

The government tracking everyone's location all the time would be/is a gross infringement on privacy. The government tracking everyone's location for a limited time period in order to curb a deadly epidemic seems much more reasonable. The difficulty is trusting them to give back that power when the crisis is over. If not for the experience of the Patriot Act, I'd be more inclined to give the benefit of the doubt ther…

They could make an app and work with Apple/Google to have it auto-installed, but where the app can be uninstalled by the user if they wish to opt out.

... and sunset this so once it’s cured, remove the capability whatsoever. But it wont
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