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Giving Americans Money to Offset Coronavirus Impact Gains Support in Congress

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Re: Giving Americans Money to Offset Coronavirus Impact Gains Support in Congress

#231
post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your assumption seems we should spend an infinite amount of money keeping everyone alive. While admirable that is not the world we live in. Every day doctors, corporations, and politicians make decisions weighing how much to spend to keep individuals alive. Your healthcare plan has a max spend. Your life insurance has a max payout. Our police force has a max enforcement capacity for keeping people safe. Etc, etc. So…

> Covid-19 is 99.9999% survivable for those under 70 with no pre-existing conditions. No, your six 9s are wrong. So far, the best quality evidence we have says: https://twitter.com/ShaunLintern/status/1239693272311828483/... If you are aged 10-19 you have a 0.006% chance of death 20-29 0.03% 30-39 0.08% 40-49 0.15% 50-59 0.60% 60-69 2.20% > If you have scientific evidence supporting mass isolation for a pandemic like…

I appreciate the correction from 99.9% to 97% survival rate for those under 70.

Thank you for sharing the link to the imperial college article. Here are some of my key take aways:

- 100,000's of people will still die even under ideal isolation conditions (didn't see an exact #).

- Isolation must happen until a vaccine is available (likely 12-18+ months).

- If isolation ends before a vaccine is found infections will quickly spike thus only delaying the dreaded hospital overflow.

- Best reasonable NPIs appear to be isolating 70+ and having sick people stay at home.

- The authors state there are many uncertainties in NPI policy effectiveness.

As with any complex topic, nuance and detail is important. The American populace is accepting of mass isolation for a few weeks, but what about months or years?

Do we really want to be isolated for the next 18+ months? Are we comfortable with families losing their jobs, home, and more? Are we comfortable with the elderly losing a big chunk of their retirement investments which may not rebound before they need it?

Again, if we don't mass isolate until a vaccine is discovered, then all we're doing is wasting time and money with mass isolations.

There are lots of diseases in this world that kill people and we can't control them all. This is a normal and sad part of the circle of life. We must evaluate reasonable measures, with clear and honest public discussions (a stretch, I know).

I understand my perspective against mass isolations isn't popular, but I'm not seeing much evidence to refute it.

Re: Giving Americans Money to Offset Coronavirus Impact Gains Support in Congress

#232
post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure people in the top 10% are not likely to need this money, but giving it to everyone is a lot easier and faster than figuring out who needs it the most. Even in that top 10% there are still people that live paycheck-to-paycheck. I was there not long ago. It's a lot better to give everyone the money and be wrong about ~10% of the people needing it then delay it for people who have bill past due right now.

Why isn't it a direct credit towards rent and free food/water/meds instead of cash? Wouldn't that be a way to ensure it isn't stowed away?

Oh boy - folks am not advocating this :). I was asking a genuine question as a response to the comment that's all. Thanks for the replies.

Re: Giving Americans Money to Offset Coronavirus Impact Gains Support in Congress

#233
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this actually a problem? Why would people want more of their net worth tied up in their home? Wouldn't cheaper homes make the properly ladder game more accessible? Are people leveraging their current home value enough to need it to be higher?

You have to account for the "I got mine so screw the next guy down on the ladder" mentality. One of the _real_ cross-party political issues is just how selfish and anti-community most Americans have become.

Another real cross-party issue is how quick people are to label other people doing their best to make it in complex systems as selfish and immoral.

If you have a $400k mortgage on a $500k asset, and I'm proposing systemic changes to make it worth $250k, you'll end up owing $150k more than it's worth. If something happens and you lose your job, you're screwed. You can sell and refinance and you'll still owe nearly as much every month as the person who bought your newly cheaper house, but now you don't have a house.

It's not about "I got mine, fuck you" so much as "this is my life's savings you're talking about making dramatically smaller" and "I'm super leveraged on this asset."

Re: Giving Americans Money to Offset Coronavirus Impact Gains Support in Congress

#234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone who comes to CA for example, citizen or not, can get a drivers license and access to a variety of social programs and they are protected by the state against federal prosecution. It's a legitimate concern.

> It's a legitimate concern. We're in the midst of a pandemic and you still think giving undocumented/illegal immigrants access to social programs is a bad idea? Not doing so would seed clusters of infection that will cross over to citizens without asking to see their papers first. I suspect even the most nativist person in the country would agree that ICE arresting people in the ER would be a terrible idea, based on…

We should never have been in a position in the first place where we have to care for illegal immigrants at the expense of our own population. Countries with the most successful response to this situation locked their borders down hard and fast. Now you're talking about illegal immigrants taking up beds in the ER, that's going to be a priceless commodity soon that many American citizens will probably be forced to go without.

The pragmatic thing to do would've been to protect our borders in the first place, both in terms of illegal immigration and restricting travel when the pandemic first began. Now that the situation is completely untenable and there's a massive underclass of millions of untraceable illegal immigrants, the 'pragmatic' thing to do is spend precious resources caring for them (both in terms of healthcare and financially) at the expense of the native population? 'Pragmatic' doesn't seem like the right word considering that line of thought is what caused the problem in the first place.

Re: Giving Americans Money to Offset Coronavirus Impact Gains Support in Congress

#235
post #112

Honest question, not an economist. How would giving everyone money impact inflation? Is giving money the same thing as “printing money?”

Typically it's redistribution. If you combine a progressive tax with a flat handout, you're basically taking from the rich and giving to the poor.

Re: Giving Americans Money to Offset Coronavirus Impact Gains Support in Congress

#237

Instead of giving money, why not suspend debt payments and interest growth?

Giving money universally benefits people universally. Suspending debt payments only benefits those who (irresponsibly?) took on lots of leverage.

Re: Giving Americans Money to Offset Coronavirus Impact Gains Support in Congress

#238
post #38

Actions have consequences. Your income and your future pension are going to pay for this in one way or another.

Yeah, and if my (high) income goes towards helping people who need it, THAT'S GREAT. I'd love to give more to those in need, but my cost of living is a function of competition with other high earners, many of whom would also probably give more if not for the high cost of living. If we all give, problem solved.

This is exactly what progressive taxes are for.

Re: Giving Americans Money to Offset Coronavirus Impact Gains Support in Congress

#239

Why can't we collectively say, no Americans have to pay mortgages/rent for x months. No small/medium sized businesses have to pay business loans for x months. Everyone focus on social distancing and making sure everyone has food and shelter. Weather this out, and start back up after peak infections/hospitalizations has been dealt with.

> Why can't we collectively say, no Americans have to pay mortgages/rent for x months.

Who would say this? The Federal government? I'm no lawyer, but essentially, they would be voiding hundreds of millions of contracts (?)

The Government can't just wave a wand and take an action like this. Even if they could, I don't think you would feel very good about this 'eat the rich' approach for long.

Think about it: Why would I as a landlord keep paying utility bills, taxes, insurance when my tenants don't pay me rent? Why would I pay my mortgage? I wouldn't. I would simply walk away. How long after you stop paying rent before your apartment doesn't have running water?

The real estate market would be decimated. Banks would fail. Trillions and trillions in value and investments destroyed. Unemployment would skyrocket. Goodbye recession, hello depression.

A back door approach to this is a moratorium on evictions, which some states have done. Good luck trying this approach if you're a tenant tho. If this crises is shorter than expected, you'll shortly be evicted and carry that on your record.

I think you're operating on the misconception that landlords and businesses are making outsized margins and 'hoarding' wealth. To think that they somehow would have the ability to continue providing you with services and incurring all expenses without any income is naive.

Direct cash payments to all taxpayers is the easiest, fastest, and probably cheapest way to achieve your goals of bailing out those at risk.

Re: Giving Americans Money to Offset Coronavirus Impact Gains Support in Congress

#240

As long as the money is given to folks who need and/or will spend it, it feels like this is the exact situation where the federal government steps in for stimulus. There’s no pull yourself up by your bootstraps talk right now and there shouldn’t be. I know the single parent working a couple of jobs will spend every dime they’re given in a time like this, just to survive. A yuppie like me would just park it in my savi…

Why not _offer_ helicopter money to everyone instead of giving it? Allow people to accept it, but don't oblige them to.

Keep it universal and simple, but optimise for cost:

- A/B test the messaging.

- Make it opt out for lower incomes and opt in for higher incomes.

- (?) Offer opt out-ers the possibility to dedicate part of their helicopter money to specific budgets (culture, army, police, medical care, ...)

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