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What If Andrew Yang Was Right?

theatlantic.com

391–400 of 474 posts

Re: What If Andrew Yang Was Right?

#391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UBI removes the geographical constraints that have been distorting the US housing market. There are plenty of areas in the country that would gladly absorb excess housing demand, but the lack the jobs and economic prospects of those areas make it difficult under current circumstances.

If people are moving to areas that lack jobs and economic prospects, because they can survive on UBI, you’ve just burdened a bunch of small towns with people who aren’t interested in making more money. Towns need tax revenue, which doesn’t come in sufficient quantity from people happily volunteering on a UBI wage.

These places are already overburdened by people living off of social security and disability insurance. At least with UBI they will get a better mix of working aged and abled bodied individuals.

Re: What If Andrew Yang Was Right?

#392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tulsi is going on Fox to complain about not being allowed in the debates despite having ~0 support. She is not a good-faith actor, and blacklisting her is entirely appropriate.

Well, blacklisting is absolutely undemocratic. But it is fair to not have her in the debates when she does not meet the requirements.

I think they mean that if a Democratic candidate is going on the (known to the left wing as pure propaganda and lies) right wing network of choice to make their case then they are not arguing in good faith and simply looking to score points with people who will never vote for her anyway.

It's disingenuous and she had next to 0 support anyway.

Re: What If Andrew Yang Was Right?

#393
post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bear in mind, we already engage in significant wealth redistribution. There's an argument that it's more efficient to do by writing checks, rather than through complex federal bureaucracies. It's the reason that Milton Friedman favored a negative income tax, and that GiveDirectly.org is considered by the Effective Altruism community to be one of the best charities.

What hasn't been established and what I think is a fair question, is whether this could ever practically roll out while simultaneously shutting down the existing welfare/disability/etc systems. As others have mentioned if it doesn't work people (see: vested political interests) will want a way to roll it back. So in almost any practical case they will have to be running at the same time and will never truly be a net-…

Valid concerns.

> whether this could ever practically roll out while simultaneously shutting down the existing welfare/disability/etc systems

Yang's plan was for UBI to be opt-in, in exchange for waiving access to many existing programs (food stamps, etc). If he had gotten traction beyond 5%, we could've expected major pushback from the left on this; similar to M4A, in many ways it's more helpful to the lower middle class than the working class. But I suspect many would still vastly prefer check in hand, both due to the complex bureaucracy (and anxiety) of the existing system, and the elimination of poverty traps.

I think this is a reasonable way to shrink spending on existing "entitlements" without cutting them altogether; and would not only offset the cost, but grease the wheels of political viability (in a case of strange bedfellows, it aligns with the Paul Ryan / Steve Bannon "deconstruct the administrative state" playbook).

> The whole "we'll just tax the 1%" hand-wavy stuff is not a good enough answer here.

True: we'd have to raise more in tax revenue, full stop. I'd like to see a lot more enforcement and closing of loopholes within our existing tax code (Apple parking its cash in Ireland, etc). Easier said than done, I know. That aside, I think a micro-tax on high-frequency stock trades, and/or Yang's VAT, are both reasonable approaches.

My favorite strategy for raising public revenue, and wealth redistribution in particular, is the Pigovian Tax [0], which has an ancillary (primary?) benefit of setting a price on a negative externality. This is the proposed solution from "The Largest Public Statement of Economists in History" [1] on climate change; a sufficient carbon dividend could likely pay for a massive portion of UBI, though it would have to be ramped up gradually. I think there's a strong case for applying the concept in other domains as well (single-use plastics, for instance).

Finally, it's worth considering that all the hand-wavy trickle-down logic of "supply-side economics" might actually work when pointed in the other direction [2], like a stimulus package that never stops. In addition to reducing silent inefficiencies of economic struggle (addiction, short-term thinking, anxiety-induced low executive function), most of those receiving the dividend would spend it, increasing economic activity and therefore tax revenue. (There are potential problems with this model, the biggest being the risk of the lion's share going to landlords; but that opens up a whole other rabbit hole of Land Value Tax, Henry George, etc.; we arguably have a rent-seeking problem in that domain already, inducing a hidden tax on the working class with or without UBI.)

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pigovian_tax

[1] https://clcouncil.org/economists-statement/

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demand-side_economics

Re: What If Andrew Yang Was Right?

#394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who gives a duck? If people are well taken care of, I'm take less innovation, since usually it's useless customer goods innovation these days.

So none of those great welfare countries gives a duck? Only the despicable USA cares those useless customer goods innovation. Good explanation.

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Re: What If Andrew Yang Was Right?

#395
post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do they, in real terms? Like, in terms of percent-of-net-worth-per-annum rather than dollars-per-individual? Because I highly, highly doubt that.

> The Pew Center’s analysis of IRS data showed that in 2014, people with an adjusted gross income, or AGI, above $250,000 paid 51.6% of all individual income taxes, even though they accounted for only 2.7% of all returns filed. These “wealthy” individuals paid an average tax rate (total taxes paid divided by cumulative AGI) of 25.7%. > By contrast, while people with adjusted gross incomes below $50,000 filed 62% of a…

So:

- If those with AGI above $250k paid 51.6% of all individual income taxes, what did they each pay per year in individual income tax?

- What did those with AGI above $2,500k pay? What percentage of annual revenue is that compared with someone on a decent professional wage, or on minimum wage?

Re: What If Andrew Yang Was Right?

#396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Taxes are not equally paid either. I'm not sure what your point is. Do you want to limit wealth? Do you want to ban entrepreneurship? Do you want communism?

You’re right. Workers now pay a higher tax rate than Capital owners: https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2019/10/16/us-now-ta... What I want is for the value workers create to be returned to them, not hoovered up by the wealthy in some distortive, unjustifiable scheme that prizes Capital ownership over everything else, including the lives and well-being of the majority of citizens.

Sure, I agree with removing capital gains taxes. Remove corporate income tax too. That would eliminate a lot of the discrepancy and tax loopholes.

But tax rates are meaningless otherwise. The top 1% pay as much as the bottom 90% combined, and the bottom 40% pay nothing at all.

Re: What If Andrew Yang Was Right?

#397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Amazon famous literally pays $0 in taxes), but not relative to how much they make. because they took every penny and reinvested it and lost money for a long time because of such heavy investment. just a few months ago everybody was complaining about companies not investing enough and returning money to shareholders - there was even legislation floated to force more investment. companies cant win with people like yo…

I'm not really interested in judging Amazon; they're a for profit company, they're going to do what's best for their bottom line. And I'm sure they don't care what I think. This is more about the systemic issues with the tax code itself.

It worked exactly as it is supposed to: it incentivized long tern investment where amazon lost a lot of money because they invested so much.

if you want to tax them on those losses that they rolled forward, you would basically have far less investment.

make up your mind - do you want them to invest and take losses or not invest and pay taxes - you can't do both.

Re: What If Andrew Yang Was Right?

#398
post #88

My primary concern with UBI is not the concept itself, but the risk for people in power to use it against the people. Once UBI exists, people will rely on it for survival. It will be the single most influential campaign topic. Worse, if UBI were to get 'Obamacared' then we'd end up with a massive battle over implementation, followed by a much worse system than the one we had prior (worst of all worlds with numerous '…

> but the risk for people in power to use it against the people. As opposed to what, private undemocratic unaccountable authoritarian institutions controlling peoples' lives? > nce UBI exists, people will rely on it for survival. Anybody who's dependent on their employers' paycheck is dependent on their employer for survival. How is dependence on the government any more dangerous than being dependent on a corporation…

folks keep getting pulled into the false dichotomy of government vs corporation. the powerful and moneyed love this, as it obfuscates the real danger to liberty and freedom, which is themselves.

the truer, and more useful, dichotomy is the people vs unwieldy and overgrown institutions.

small institutions are great: your local government, your local bank, your local community center, etc. because the power disparity isn't so large that they can be kept in check and directed to do the will of the people.

large institutions, on the other hand, are irresistable to the power-hungry, and have no foolproof defense against corruption to their aims. they view people as resource to extract power from, not customers/constituents to serve.

UBI falls on the side of subjugating the people to the whims of government, reducing liberty and freedom, not extending it, as some like to argue.

(this is also why we should be against corporatism, and the favoring of capital over labor in general)

Re: What If Andrew Yang Was Right?

#399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Amazon famous literally pays $0 in taxes), but not relative to how much they make. because they took every penny and reinvested it and lost money for a long time because of such heavy investment. just a few months ago everybody was complaining about companies not investing enough and returning money to shareholders - there was even legislation floated to force more investment. companies cant win with people like yo…

> because they took every penny and reinvested it and lost money for a long time because of such heavy investment. No, my understanding from press reporting is that the heavy reinvestment was to avoid taxes in the first place

that's the same thing. we set up tax structures to encourage long term investment precisely because we hope companies will try to invest to avoid taxes.

Re: What If Andrew Yang Was Right?

#400
post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Minimum wage doesn't grow with inflation because the point of inflation is to steal wealth from the working class: https://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/02/13/the-case-for-hi...

That's not the point of inflation, and I don't think that article backs what you're saying up.

inflation is used to keep the "time value of money" working so that capital is incentivized to be reinvested, lest it lose all its value over time. this impetus leads capital to relentlessly seek returns, which over time compresses returns to labor in favor of capital.

so suppressing labor is certainly a consequence of our positive inflation policy. the intention can be debated, but note that various govermental units tolerated prejudiced efforts like mccarthyism and redlining too.

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