What If Andrew Yang Was Right? • Hacker News Board

Re: What If Andrew Yang Was Right?

#101

Post by bavell » Tue, Mar 17, 2020, 5:18 AM UTC

Fellshard wrote: post #93

kova12 wrote: post #86

I think his most compelling policy is not UBI, but giving the people money to spend on politics. This country is suffocated by special interests, which create draconian laws for all of us to follow just so that they can collect a little bit ore money. Just filing the taxes alone is a monumentally frustrating experience. This needs to be streamlined, but it will never be until corporations are stripped from their lobb…

Anything that generates a feedback loop where politicians give you tax money to spend on politicians has an instant smell to me. There may be other ways to accomplish this, but that feedback loop stinks to high heaven on initial examination.

You mean the entirety of corporate America? All those tax loopholes? Agreed, I think they stink as well.

Good thing Yang's Democracy Dollars idea has no strings attached unlike that sticky lobbyist cash.

Re: What If Andrew Yang Was Right?

#102

Post by puzzledobserver » Tue, Mar 17, 2020, 5:18 AM UTC

Proziam wrote: post #88

My primary concern with UBI is not the concept itself, but the risk for people in power to use it against the people. Once UBI exists, people will rely on it for survival. It will be the single most influential campaign topic. Worse, if UBI were to get 'Obamacared' then we'd end up with a massive battle over implementation, followed by a much worse system than the one we had prior (worst of all worlds with numerous '…

I think something similar has happened with minimum wages. It appears to me that the natural next step is to make the minimum wage grow with inflation.

Unfortunately, this hasn't happened, so we're stuck with various government-mandated minimum wage levels that are tied to the value of money from several years before.

Companies can now point to the law, and use this obsolete number as a metric by which to set their own salaries. What was intended to protect the laborer is therefore perversely being used to protect their corporate employer.

Re: What If Andrew Yang Was Right?

#103

Post by puzzledobserver » Tue, Mar 17, 2020, 5:23 AM UTC

bavell wrote: post #90

beastcoast wrote: post #71

The problem with UBI is that most versions of it would essentially liquidate social services that people would normally receive. UBI only makes sense in addition to the other parts of a comprehensive safety net (universal housing and healthcare), not as a replacement.

Why would I choose to jump through bureaucratic and degrading welfare programs for vouchers and discounts when I can opt-in to a superior UBI program that gives me cash which I can use for anything? I'm the one who best knows how to effectively allocate those resources in my life. E.g. What good are food stamps when I have no gas (or car) to get to the store? There are some social services that are necessary and bene…

Ohh, but then the UBI recipient may use it to purchase something that Big Brother doesn't want them to buy... like using SNAP to buy hot food.

On a more serious note, yes. Beyond basic necessities like healthcare and education, that the government would like to micromanage lives of welfare recipients feels demeaning in the extreme.

Re: What If Andrew Yang Was Right?

#104

Post by bavell » Tue, Mar 17, 2020, 5:24 AM UTC

monadic2 wrote: post #99

bavell wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would I choose to jump through bureaucratic and degrading welfare programs for vouchers and discounts when I can opt-in to a superior UBI program that gives me cash which I can use for anything? I'm the one who best knows how to effectively allocate those resources in my life. E.g. What good are food stamps when I have no gas (or car) to get to the store? There are some social services that are necessary and bene…

UBI still does not provide health care.

Right. It also doesn't address climate change. Or gay rights, regime-change wars, or gender discrimination.

It just provides every American with increased economic freedom. It's a good thing my doctor accepts USD :)

Re: What If Andrew Yang Was Right?

#105

Post by monadic2 » Tue, Mar 17, 2020, 5:25 AM UTC

Yang was right in the sense that UBI is going to make more and more sense moving forward. I am still unclear how this would intersect with e.g. healthcare needs, which I believe is fundamentally an easier problem to solve for greater immediate effect.

Re: What If Andrew Yang Was Right?

#106

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Mar 17, 2020, 5:25 AM UTC

battery_cowboy wrote: post #49

uk_programmer wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You're gonna pay one way or another. Only because nonsense like this is allowed. > Some costs will be more monetary, some will be more health/crime-related, etc, but very few of us live in countries where there is a general desire and will to force people to work. You should be looking for work. If you haven't tried looking for a job you get your benefits removed. Obviously the Elderly and Disabled should get help…

What if there aren't enough jobs and they've automated everything they can? What's your answer when a hundred million jobs are gone to robots?

[deleted]

Re: What If Andrew Yang Was Right?

#107

Post by godelski » Tue, Mar 17, 2020, 5:35 AM UTC

monadic2 wrote: post #105

Yang was right in the sense that UBI is going to make more and more sense moving forward. I am still unclear how this would intersect with e.g. healthcare needs, which I believe is fundamentally an easier problem to solve for greater immediate effect.

I think the idea here is that people that are sick can actually take time off. If you've worked in these kinds of jobs you show up to work sick because you can't miss a day, because you can't have a smaller paycheck. So a little more money eases this and gives more leverage to workers.

Re: What If Andrew Yang Was Right?

#108

Post by typ » Tue, Mar 17, 2020, 5:35 AM UTC

qqqwerty wrote: post #13

aazaa wrote: post #3

The interview here is compelling. Yang's book is even more compelling. But what Yang doesn't do here or in his book is make a powerful case to fiscal conservative spelling out just how universal income will avoid demolishing the economy through inflation. Until this happens, UBI is going nowhere. Although COVID-19 is on everyone's minds right now, it wasn't too long ago that Venezuela, its hyperinflation, and empty s…

Inflation is a non-issue. Economic growth has largely been constrained by demand, not supply. And the modern economy is saturated with replacement goods. If the demand for milk goes up, I can switch to soy milk. If soy milk goes up, I can switch to Almond. And if all of them go up, I just drink water. Once most basic needs are met, inflation looses its power with a few exceptions. The financialization of our economy…

I disagree.

There are two kinds of goods. The ones like computers and phones which are steadily getting cheaper and the ones like housing whose price has got inflated enormously. Remember how we tried to fix the education problem by student loans and how we tried to alleviate the housing burden by mortgage tax deduction and subsidies of interests? I don't think the problem is people are unable to afford milk or a shiny iPhone. It is the price of housing, education, and healthcare.

Re: What If Andrew Yang Was Right?

#109

Post by buzzkillington » Tue, Mar 17, 2020, 5:36 AM UTC

Why he isn't:

Suggested income: $12,000

US Population: $327,200,000

Total cost for first year: $3,926,400,000,000

Total government expenditure for US: $3,800,000,000

So we would need to shut down everything the government does to afford his UBI. I personally don't feel like going for free market ICBM solutions is the best way to run an army, but each to their own.

Re: What If Andrew Yang Was Right?

#110

Post by strken » Tue, Mar 17, 2020, 5:36 AM UTC

grecy wrote: post #9

We don't have to entirely speculate, we can look at existing evidence. Australia has the most liberal welfare in the world. Anyone over 18 can get $984 per month, and up to another $242 in rent assistance. [1] It has nothing to do with your previous employment history, or being fired, or anything like that. In fact, you can get it if you've never had a job in your life. You need to be "actively looking for work" whic…

The Australian government forces you to do unpaid work if you spend more than 12 months on the dole[0]. They've trialled drug testing. Turning up to Centrelink is more degrading than going to the DMV in the US. It's not intended nor commonly used as a UBI, with the exception of youth allowance and austudy for uni students. Once you're at the threshold for the dole your effective marginal tax rate climbs well over 50% because it's not a real UBI, disincentivising recipients from working more hours.

Australia is also incredibly rich in mineral wealth and has profited immensely from digging up ore and selling it to China during their construction boom. These profits haven't been enough to stop it slipping out of the top ten of the happiness index, and Melbourne lost its most liveable city spot to Vienna in 2019 because the embarrassingly high property prices prevent most people from buying a home.

[0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Work_for_the_Dole#Basic_Work...