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What If Andrew Yang Was Right?

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Re: What If Andrew Yang Was Right?

#81

Post by skybrian »

beastcoast wrote: post #71

The problem with UBI is that most versions of it would essentially liquidate social services that people would normally receive. UBI only makes sense in addition to the other parts of a comprehensive safety net (universal housing and healthcare), not as a replacement.

The conservatives into UBI are hoping for that but at least with Yang's plan there was the choice of continuing with old benefits if they are higher.

Although this choice is probably pretty easy mathematically, it's kind of a terrible choice to have to make, so after a while the plan changed to saying it would stack on top of some other benefits.

(But none of this matters because whatever Congress might do would be different.)

Re: What If Andrew Yang Was Right?

#83

Post by Fjolsvith »

hyperpallium wrote: post #63
justchilly wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure I follow how the milk as a substitute for water analogy translates to housing. There are no substitutes for housing in desirable areas. When the entire working class suddenly has more income, it doesn't create more housing, it pushes up the price of housing. Sure we could build more, but why? After all, if the price of affordable housing goes up, so does less affordable housing, and luxury housing. And we en…

Yes. Also, first home owner's grants increased prices. Reduced interest rates increased house prices. Perhaps the great covid-19 WFH experiment will (partially) undermine the housing geography monopoly. Would socialist free housing, utilities, food, medical care, education might work better than UBI? What incentives would make capitalism provide them?

Capitalism can't provide housing, utilities, food, medical care and education for free.

People would just quit their job if they got all that with no effort. Then how would the government be able to pay for the free stuff if it wasn't able to tax workers?

Edit: It occurred to me the government could lock people up in work camps in order to be able to tax them.

Re: What If Andrew Yang Was Right?

#84

Post by allovernow »

93po wrote: post #79
allovernow wrote: post #65

The fact that covid is screwing the world right now does not mean that we should all be getting UBI under non emergency conditions. Putting Romney's plan in with Yang's is a conflation here because one is only for a single unprecedented global emergency, not everyday life. That said, UBI is quite literal wealth redistribution. You take taxes from the haves and give the cash directly to the hands of the have nots. The…

There's nothing unethical about a wealth tax. Billionaires made their fortunates on the backs of society and have only maintained that power and wealth through corruption and bribery. They should have never had that money to begin with.

Billionaires skim like .5-2% in margins off the top of the companies and relationships they build. People get paid throughout. This is nonsense.

Re: What If Andrew Yang Was Right?

#85

Post by skybrian »

allovernow wrote: post #65

The fact that covid is screwing the world right now does not mean that we should all be getting UBI under non emergency conditions. Putting Romney's plan in with Yang's is a conflation here because one is only for a single unprecedented global emergency, not everyday life. That said, UBI is quite literal wealth redistribution. You take taxes from the haves and give the cash directly to the hands of the have nots. The…

Yep, it's redistribution. To tell what's really going on (like how progressive it is) you need to combine it with the revenue side and what the net gain or loss for each person is.

Everyone getting the same amount is symbolic equality. Symbolism can be important, though!

UBI looks far more expensive than it actually is because for many people, they'd be getting some of their own money back, similar to a tax refund. It's still expensive, though.

Re: What If Andrew Yang Was Right?

#86

Post by kova12 »

I think his most compelling policy is not UBI, but giving the people money to spend on politics. This country is suffocated by special interests, which create draconian laws for all of us to follow just so that they can collect a little bit ore money. Just filing the taxes alone is a monumentally frustrating experience. This needs to be streamlined, but it will never be until corporations are stripped from their lobbying.

Re: What If Andrew Yang Was Right?

#87

Post by MR4D »

qqqwerty wrote: post #59
justchilly wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure I follow how the milk as a substitute for water analogy translates to housing. There are no substitutes for housing in desirable areas. When the entire working class suddenly has more income, it doesn't create more housing, it pushes up the price of housing. Sure we could build more, but why? After all, if the price of affordable housing goes up, so does less affordable housing, and luxury housing. And we en…

UBI removes the geographical constraints that have been distorting the US housing market. There are plenty of areas in the country that would gladly absorb excess housing demand, but the lack the jobs and economic prospects of those areas make it difficult under current circumstances.

This makes no sense.

For example, even with UBI, a startup will still tend to want to locate in Silicon Valley than in, say, Amarillo Texas.

The sheer ability to grab a drink with someone who can change you life in tech does not exist in the same proportion in Amarillo as it does in Silicon Valley. Hence, housing prices will differ.

This is also why there are more oil companies in Houston than in Atlanta, despite the roughly same size metro area.

Re: What If Andrew Yang Was Right?

#88

Post by Proziam »

My primary concern with UBI is not the concept itself, but the risk for people in power to use it against the people.

Once UBI exists, people will rely on it for survival. It will be the single most influential campaign topic.

Worse, if UBI were to get 'Obamacared' then we'd end up with a massive battle over implementation, followed by a much worse system than the one we had prior (worst of all worlds with numerous 'compromises'), and then followed by a repeal and whatever subsequent chaos comes out of it.

I don't want to imagine what would happen to the folks who find themselves reliant on UBI if it were to go down that path.

Re: What If Andrew Yang Was Right?

#89

Post by skybrian »

qqqwerty wrote: post #13
aazaa wrote: post #3

The interview here is compelling. Yang's book is even more compelling. But what Yang doesn't do here or in his book is make a powerful case to fiscal conservative spelling out just how universal income will avoid demolishing the economy through inflation. Until this happens, UBI is going nowhere. Although COVID-19 is on everyone's minds right now, it wasn't too long ago that Venezuela, its hyperinflation, and empty s…

Inflation is a non-issue. Economic growth has largely been constrained by demand, not supply. And the modern economy is saturated with replacement goods. If the demand for milk goes up, I can switch to soy milk. If soy milk goes up, I can switch to Almond. And if all of them go up, I just drink water. Once most basic needs are met, inflation looses its power with a few exceptions. The financialization of our economy…

We are not getting any economic growth right now.

Re: What If Andrew Yang Was Right?

#90

Post by bavell »

beastcoast wrote: post #71

The problem with UBI is that most versions of it would essentially liquidate social services that people would normally receive. UBI only makes sense in addition to the other parts of a comprehensive safety net (universal housing and healthcare), not as a replacement.

Why would I choose to jump through bureaucratic and degrading welfare programs for vouchers and discounts when I can opt-in to a superior UBI program that gives me cash which I can use for anything? I'm the one who best knows how to effectively allocate those resources in my life. E.g. What good are food stamps when I have no gas (or car) to get to the store?

There are some social services that are necessary and beneficial but these should be built on top of a UBI foundation for maximum effectiveness.

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