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One way to fight a coronavirus recession: $1k for every American

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Re: One way to fight a coronavirus recession: $1k for every American

#261

Post by ryanmercer »

tjr225 wrote: post #251
ryanmercer wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To add to this, I am extremely stressed right now. I have an immune-compromised 67 year old parent, I work in international freight, I have a GED so am not too marketable if I lose my job, I've got a few hundred dollars in savings, I've got enough food for a couple of months for my mother and I, that $1000 even just once would help markedly in reducing my stress. Add to that I'm supposed to be getting married in 68 d…

> I have a GED so am not too marketable if I lose my job I'm the GP who started this huge thread but I just want you to know I got my GED in 2007 right before the last recession. Don't be so hard on yourself - you could have a remote job working for a company in SF like me :). It took a lot to get here but almost anyone can do it. > Add to that I'm supposed to be getting married in 68 days and who knows what's going…

>Don't be so hard on yourself - you could have a remote job working for a company in SF like me :). It took a lot to get here but almost anyone can do it.

Unlikely. I'm not a programmer and have no desire for it. Everything else remote wants people with years of experience and a degree in something like marketing or only hires via short term contracts for stuff like customer service/support and doesn't actually want to make you a proper employee. At least in my experience over the past few years.

A lot of places just flat out require a bachelors degree (especially startups once they get some investor money).

Re: One way to fight a coronavirus recession: $1k for every American

#262

Post by magduf »

FillardMillmore wrote: post #255
magduf wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The landlords are using the rent to pay the mortgage on the property. If the banks suspend mortgage payments, then the landlords don't need to collect rent any more. If the landlords desperately need that rent just to do basic maintenance and repairs, and don't have enough saved to deal with a possible problem that might happen in the next month, then they don't deserve to own the property.

> If the landlords desperately need that rent just to do basic maintenance and repairs, and don't have enough saved to deal with a possible problem that might happen in the next month, then they don't deserve to own the property. I'm not saying you're wrong, but what's the argument for that? On its surface, the proclamation that they 'don't deserve to own their property' seems a little draconian to me. What if a repa…

That's what insurance is for, or maybe a loan.

If the repair is not basic, then it sounds like it's going to be very costly. If it's very costly, then the tenants missing a month or two of rent is not going to be enough to make a difference on the landlord being able to afford it. After all, the amount of money they should be raking in above the mortgage on the property is not generally going to be a large fraction of the total rent. So if the landlord can't swing a few hundred dollars for an unforeseen repair, then they aren't in sufficient financial shape to be owning and renting out that property, since the landlord (in normal circumstances) is fully responsible for keeping the property in good repair at all times. "I can't afford it" is not a valid excuse for not doing repairs, and the court system agrees with me.

Re: One way to fight a coronavirus recession: $1k for every American

#263

Post by true_religion »

tjr225 wrote: post #3

Am I way out of band or does that seem like a comically small amount of money for the average American? I live in an extremely low COL area and live well within my current means. Assuming my work dries up and I don't have any savings, 3k$ would buy me two months tops. Just to give you an idea of how cheaply I live: Mortgage is ~800$/mo, Car is a paid off 2006 Toyota Highlander, Student loan minimums of ~400$/mo, My w…

It wouldn’t be much per person for living alone but it would save families if it were really per person. A family of four would get 4000 per month, which for me would cover all family expenses.

Re: One way to fight a coronavirus recession: $1k for every American

#264

Post by Proziam »

magduf wrote: post #260
Proziam wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Source? California has an insanely high state income tax (up to 12.3%), compared to Nevada, which has ZERO state income tax. I find it dubious to put the 'blame' on the federal government for California's finances.

I don't need a source, this is common knowledge. Do you not know how the US federal income tax system works? CA does have a high state income tax, but it also contributes far more to federal coffers than NV, and it doesn't get as much back as it puts in. Many other states get more back than they put in. Again, I don't need a source for this, this is common knowledge.

If you're going to use terms like 'a lot' when dealing with financial topics it helps to offer real numbers backed up by sources so that comparisons can be made. It helps add specificity to points being discussed.

So now, when I say "Yes, but a lot of that difference is due to California's own policies forcing higher costs of living -> forcing higher wages -> pushing incomes into higher federal tax brackets...therefore it is actually California's fault that their citizens get creamed on taxes" we could have a meaningful discussion as to what degree California's policies have such effects, and what levers could be manipulated to alter those effects.

But sure, go with 'common knowledge' and remove any semblance of intellectualism in the discussion. Let's just make claims like we're on Reddit.

> Do you not know how the US federal income tax system works?

I do. I'm very aware that there is a substantial systemic interplay between economic conditions within a state and the downwind effects it has on the cost of living, taxation, and quality of life for citizens in that state.

The interplay of the various systems at work is definitively not within the realm of 'common knowledge' even if this forum's demographics show higher than average education.

Re: One way to fight a coronavirus recession: $1k for every American

#265

Post by ryukafalz »

nybble41 wrote: post #144
ryukafalz wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s also just straight up luck. I was fortunate enough to get a decent job that paid well largely because I knew the right people; I have friends with similar levels of education who aren’t so well off. They’re not any less thoughtful with their money than I am (in fact probably more so), it’s just a matter of circumstance.

"Knowing the right people" isn't exactly pure luck either. People do have a certain amount of influence over the social connections they (or their family) choose to cultivate.

Let's add some more context: high school, the guy in question was a former student of one of my teachers from a few years before who visited from time to time. I chatted with him occasionally in class. Later in college I found out he worked for a local tech company, which was pretty rare in that area. Got a recommendation, got the job.

It was luck.

Re: One way to fight a coronavirus recession: $1k for every American

#266

Post by aeternum »

xyzzyz wrote: post #253
aeternum wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, for government services I agree, they should be paid for with taxes and we should have some semblance of a balanced budget. QE is different though, the Fed already has mechanisms in place to decide "how much" and is already printing money not paid for by taxes. Part of the goal of QE is actually to devalue the nation's currency in order to increase exports. The question is just how to best inject this printed mo…

> In one way, QE is an extremely efficient (and very difficult to evade) wealth tax applied proportionally and instantly to any entity that holds USD. It would be very hard to pull that off with traditional taxes. The government could also just print itself lots of new dollars, it's even more efficient. We don't do that, because the central banks are independent from government, so QE is a roundabout way of allowing…

I generally agree, there is significant benefit to having the central bank operate independent from government. I'm not advocating any change there.

The central bank could keep that independence but simply distribute the QE money to individuals as a one-time or traunched payment (I realize calling it a UBI is misleading as it implies it is ongoing). There should be no expectation that it is permanent or continues.

Re: One way to fight a coronavirus recession: $1k for every American

#267

Post by xyzzyz »

aeternum wrote: post #266
xyzzyz wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In one way, QE is an extremely efficient (and very difficult to evade) wealth tax applied proportionally and instantly to any entity that holds USD. It would be very hard to pull that off with traditional taxes. The government could also just print itself lots of new dollars, it's even more efficient. We don't do that, because the central banks are independent from government, so QE is a roundabout way of allowing…

I generally agree, there is significant benefit to having the central bank operate independent from government. I'm not advocating any change there. The central bank could keep that independence but simply distribute the QE money to individuals as a one-time or traunched payment (I realize calling it a UBI is misleading as it implies it is ongoing). There should be no expectation that it is permanent or continues.

> The central bank could keep that independence but simply distribute the QE money to individuals as a one-time or traunched payment (I realize calling it a UBI is misleading as it implies it is ongoing). There should be no expectation that it is permanent or continues.

Right. This is a sensible (though unclear if the best) policy in context of exogenous shock. However, using this as a backdoor to introduce perpetual basic income of significant value, with some very vague hand-wavy plan how to pay for it on an ongoing basis, is rather silly, and that's what I was pointing out in parent posters.

Re: One way to fight a coronavirus recession: $1k for every American

#268

Post by davidgh »

Using the same total expenditure, quadruple the amount to $4k, give it out over 4 months ($1k per month), and only give it to those who are likely to need it (based on current income). Use 2020 income tax returns to reconcile the payments when actual income is known.

Re: One way to fight a coronavirus recession: $1k for every American

#269

Post by tjr225 »

ryanmercer wrote: post #261
tjr225 wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have a GED so am not too marketable if I lose my job I'm the GP who started this huge thread but I just want you to know I got my GED in 2007 right before the last recession. Don't be so hard on yourself - you could have a remote job working for a company in SF like me :). It took a lot to get here but almost anyone can do it. > Add to that I'm supposed to be getting married in 68 days and who knows what's going…

>Don't be so hard on yourself - you could have a remote job working for a company in SF like me :). It took a lot to get here but almost anyone can do it. Unlikely. I'm not a programmer and have no desire for it. Everything else remote wants people with years of experience and a degree in something like marketing or only hires via short term contracts for stuff like customer service/support and doesn't actually want…

I might shoot you an email based on your contact info because this conversation doesn’t really suit itself to this type of forum.

I am not a programmer(but do computer things) but I didn’t do this stuff when I got my ged. Anyways I want to emphasize that your sobriety is really amazing and I genuinely look up to people such as yourself who can make it happen.

Re: One way to fight a coronavirus recession: $1k for every American

#270

Post by 6510 »

champagneben wrote: post #51
leggomylibro wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, policymakers could re-asses at that point in time if they decided to take an action like this. If you really believe that things will remain disrupted for a long time, it seems like you could see this as a great opportunity for a basic income experiment, huh?

One of the interesting questions would be how much a basic income would affect people's willingness to work, and we would not be getting that out of this experiment. In fact, I can't imagine anything useful we'd be getting out of that experiment, except for its effects in similar very dramatic circumstances.

How would the data from any experiment reach you? (there have been lots of experiments) And not to offend you but what point is there in informing people?

I would like to see an 1 euro/month basic income. Then we get a good idea what it costs to distribute. Then we should gradually increase it by an equally insignificant amount so that we can gradually observe who should but doesn't get it and how much fraud we have to deal with.

With 100 euro extra we can at least silence the folk who for the last 100 years barricaded the discussion by saying they would continue to work themselves but others... others will do this and that. Popular variations: Wimmen will stop obeying their husband. Men will use the extra money to buy alcohol. Kids wont seek jobs. etc

I think Keynes 15 hour work week provides a good hint. Wealthy people actually work more.

I think the silver bullet basic income is silly for other reasons. Our economic model is to optimize for wealth extraction. Give people 50, 500 or 1000 extra and rent will go up by exactly the same amount.

I'd still be willing to pay for the distribution experiment.

But does it actually matter what I think?

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