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Advice to newbie on learning Lisp/Clojure

learningclojure.com

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Re: Advice to newbie on learning Lisp/Clojure

#21

Post by kd0amg »

Kototama wrote: post #14

I don't agree with the suggestion as I fear that beginning with SICP could just demotivates a beginner and that early positive feedbacks (related to the goal to achieve) are important. While Scheme is conceptually simpler than Clojure, Clojure remains relatively simple in its conception. Here is what makes it a little more complex: - one needs to know a bit of Java to really use it fully. The integration with Java is…

Just to complete the thought, what advice would you give to someone familiar with both Java and Lisp or to someone familiar with neither?

Re: Advice to newbie on learning Lisp/Clojure

#22

Post by [deleted] »

RiderOfGiraffes wrote: post #6
mduerksen wrote: post #3

The author seems to think that Clojure has some conceptional complexity to it that is easier to overcome by doing a intermediate step with Racket. But in which way is Racket or any other Lisp an intermediate step? I had no Lisp experience whatsoever before I started with Clojure, and the only real difficulties I experienced were (in descending order): a) translating my imperative-style thinking into functional style…

My experience is very limited. I've not yet worked through all of Chapter 3 of SICP, and I've not had the opportunity to hack any real code in any lisp dialect since I implemented LispKit one weeked in 1989. However ... I think there is merit in the simplicity, clarity and purity of Scheme in helping put someone "in the right place" for grokking the real value and real power of Clojure. On the very few occasions I've…

[deleted]

Re: Advice to newbie on learning Lisp/Clojure

#23

Post by neutronicus »

RiderOfGiraffes wrote: post #6
mduerksen wrote: post #3

The author seems to think that Clojure has some conceptional complexity to it that is easier to overcome by doing a intermediate step with Racket. But in which way is Racket or any other Lisp an intermediate step? I had no Lisp experience whatsoever before I started with Clojure, and the only real difficulties I experienced were (in descending order): a) translating my imperative-style thinking into functional style…

My experience is very limited. I've not yet worked through all of Chapter 3 of SICP, and I've not had the opportunity to hack any real code in any lisp dialect since I implemented LispKit one weeked in 1989. However ... I think there is merit in the simplicity, clarity and purity of Scheme in helping put someone "in the right place" for grokking the real value and real power of Clojure. On the very few occasions I've…

* It's a bit like "lies to children." We know that Newtonian mechanics is wrong, but we still teach that first because it's easier to grasp, easier to do the sums, and more directly in line with our own experience. But if taught properly (and that's another story altogether) it lays the foundation for being able to do the sums and do the work "properly" in Relativity. *

This is not the whole story. We also still teach Newtonian mechanics because Newtonian mechanics is not only good enough for a wide range of real word applications, but the only feasible calculational strategy. Mechanical and aerospace engineers use Newtonian mechanics (and derived disciplines such as Newtonian continuum mechanics and fluid mechanics) to great profit.

Re: Advice to newbie on learning Lisp/Clojure

#24

Post by btcoal »

GeorgeTirebiter wrote: post #17
RiderOfGiraffes wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't work out if that was a genuine question, or a troll. But HN doesn't have many trolls, so I thought I'd answer you straight. I also thought at the same time I'd explain the downvote you got from someone. Ive upvoted you to cancel that out for now. We'll see what other people do. Try this search on Google: http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=clojure The very first hit is: http://clojure.org/ From that site, the ho…

Your post could be shortened to: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=clojure

I upvoted you to cancel out the downvote you got. Spot on.

Re: Advice to newbie on learning Lisp/Clojure

#25

Post by Kototama »

kd0amg wrote: post #21
Kototama wrote: post #14

I don't agree with the suggestion as I fear that beginning with SICP could just demotivates a beginner and that early positive feedbacks (related to the goal to achieve) are important. While Scheme is conceptually simpler than Clojure, Clojure remains relatively simple in its conception. Here is what makes it a little more complex: - one needs to know a bit of Java to really use it fully. The integration with Java is…

Just to complete the thought, what advice would you give to someone familiar with both Java and Lisp or to someone familiar with neither?

There should be no major problem if someone knows both Java and a Lisp. Either reading Programming Clojure or Pratical Clojure should be enough to start with, or maybe this tutorial http://java.ociweb.com/mark/clojure/article.html (I didn't read it but it supposed to be good)

For somebody who don't know neither Java neither a Lisp, I would suggest to understand the following concepts in Java and the JVM before doing the suggestions in the second point (though PCL could be read before learning Java to see why Lisps are so awewome):

- collections (java.util.List, hashmap, set etc.) since each Clojure collection implements a Java interface. This is useful for interoperability.

- interfaces, inheritance and access specifiers (because then you can understand why you can not override a Java protected method from a Clojure proxy)

- some of the most common API like regular expressions, syntax for printf etc.

- the basis of how the classpath works

Re: Advice to newbie on learning Lisp/Clojure

#26

Post by RiderOfGiraffes »

GeorgeTirebiter wrote: post #17
RiderOfGiraffes wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't work out if that was a genuine question, or a troll. But HN doesn't have many trolls, so I thought I'd answer you straight. I also thought at the same time I'd explain the downvote you got from someone. Ive upvoted you to cancel that out for now. We'll see what other people do. Try this search on Google: http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=clojure The very first hit is: http://clojure.org/ From that site, the ho…

Your post could be shortened to: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=clojure

Yes, it could've. But I think that would be an example of the increasing snarkiness that pg has noticed, and is saddened by.

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1057275

You may think it's witty, but I think it's just a touch nasty, and I would prefer to give a clear explanation.

Re: Advice to newbie on learning Lisp/Clojure

#27

Post by kenjackson »

I'm not sure going down the Scheme->List->Clojure path is the right way to go. First, I don't really know Clojure. But I do think Scheme to Lisp was more painful for me than I think it should have been. I also learned Scheme from SICP, but going to Lisp it seems like I tripped over every little thing.

Things like funcall had me banging my head -- as I didn't even realize that it was something that should be different.

If your goal is to learn Lisp, I'd just go straight to Lisp.

Again, I don't know Clojure, so I don't know if learning Lisp first is really necessary, but if it is, then skip Scheme.

Also, don't do all the exercises in SICP unless you feel like doing so. Some require domain knowledge that you frankly just don't need if your desire to learn these languages is web dev.

Someone needs to do a SICP: The Web Dev Edition

Re: Advice to newbie on learning Lisp/Clojure

#28

Post by regularfry »

kenjackson wrote: post #27

I'm not sure going down the Scheme->List->Clojure path is the right way to go. First, I don't really know Clojure. But I do think Scheme to Lisp was more painful for me than I think it should have been. I also learned Scheme from SICP, but going to Lisp it seems like I tripped over every little thing. Things like funcall had me banging my head -- as I didn't even realize that it was something that should be different…

My relatively inexperienced viewpoint puts Clojure somewhat closer to Scheme than Common Lisp.

Re: Advice to newbie on learning Lisp/Clojure

#29

Post by callahad »

RiderOfGiraffes wrote: post #5
freddealmeida wrote: post #2

sorry why does lisp have anything to do with clojure?

I can't work out if that was a genuine question, or a troll. But HN doesn't have many trolls, so I thought I'd answer you straight. I also thought at the same time I'd explain the downvote you got from someone. Ive upvoted you to cancel that out for now. We'll see what other people do. Try this search on Google: http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=clojure The very first hit is: http://clojure.org/ From that site, the ho…

This is another place that Duck Duck Go shines: http://duckduckgo.com/?q=clojure

At the very top, in the zero-click info box: "Clojure is a recent dialect of the Lisp programming language."

Re: Advice to newbie on learning Lisp/Clojure

#30

Post by GeorgeTirebiter »

btcoal wrote: post #24
GeorgeTirebiter wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your post could be shortened to: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=clojure

I upvoted you to cancel out the downvote you got. Spot on.

Thanks.

Look, it's the nature of text-only that doesn't capture very much of a person's "state". In order to do that with any sort of fidelity, a considerably longer post is required. Of course something short like that could be interpreted as snarky, or it could be interpreted in the spirit in which is was offered, a playful one. I understand, everything here on HN is dead serious and so trying to make a joke will go over like a lead balloon.

I guess what I find disturbing is that if people were to take that comment from a different point of view, giving me the benefit of the doubt (like the original poster was granted), I think people would not be so quick to rush to be offended.

I also don't know if all HN folks know about letmegooglethatforyou.com and I think it's kinda fun and playful.

Lastly, pg is not God, and invoking his name as if he has the "last word" is, I think, not helpful. I appreciate his opinion, but that's all it is. And he ain't perfect, as he will instantly admit. (As I will instantly admit!)

Now, I will go back to being my serious self, because, you know, everything on HN is serious! Laughing is not allowed. Apparently...

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