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One way to fight a coronavirus recession: $1k for every American

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Re: One way to fight a coronavirus recession: $1k for every American

#211

Post by Gunax »

vearwhershuh wrote: post #22
Gunax wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's make it 10k per month, then we can all be wealthy.

Obviously there is a level that makes sense and a level that does not. Using the big-bank/government debt-system to manage our money supply is no more or less free market than a citizens dividend, it just ensures that the wealthy get first dibs on the new money and then the rest of us pay interest on it. Steve Keen's idea for a modern debt jubilee is more important for the long term growth of the economy: http://www.…

Of course I am being flippant, so thanks for your thoughtful response despite that.

I don't know what you mean about wealthy getting first dibs on money (if I am lending to someone why would I care if they are wealthy or not [aside from risk considerations]?).

My argument is simply that we cannot afford it. Any Ubi is either too low to live on or unaffordable. Want to give everyone 20k per year? In America that would cost about 5 trillion per year.

Re: One way to fight a coronavirus recession: $1k for every American

#212

Post by banads »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #201
vearwhershuh wrote: post #13

This is how we should manage the money supply, and it should be monthly. Direct, debt free issuance of a citizens dividend to every US citizen. Coupled with a wind-down of the debt bubble. Maybe take Steve Keen's idea and require that a certain portion of the payment be used to extinguish any debts. Unfortunately whenever a president starts talking about this, he has a tendency to be shot.

> Unfortunately whenever a president starts talking about this, he has a tendency to be shot. So, refresh my memory: Was Reagan talking about this? Ford? (People attempted to shoot him twice, but not hit.) Kennedy? For that matter, has a president ever seriously proposed this? You sound like you're just making stuff up.

Dr. King was talking about this shortly before he was shot.

Re: One way to fight a coronavirus recession: $1k for every American

#213

Post by wonderwonder »

maratd wrote: post #182
wonderwonder wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People working many hourly jobs net less than $1,000 per month and cannot afford to take unpaid time off. So they go to work and spread the virus. Providing them and others with enough money to at least cover their most dire bills reduces that need to go to work sick. If money is not provided to these people, the odds that they are soon homeless if their work closes down is very real. ~40% of America cannot afford a…

> People working many hourly jobs net less than $1,000 per month and cannot afford to take unpaid time off. Absolutely and those people should receive assistance through the regular channels we have available. Unemployment, charities, welfare, churches, synagogues, etc. and frankly, good old fashioned neighborly assistance. Not by throwing money at everybody, most of whom do not need it. That's just redistribution of…

"Absolutely and those people should receive assistance through the regular channels we have available. Unemployment, charities, welfare, churches, synagogues, etc. and frankly, good old fashioned neighborly assistance."

This probably works well in upper class neighborhoods, but a good portion of the US don't live in communities with much to spare. People unable to afford a $400 emergency or who rely on schools to ensure their children have at least one good meal a day generally dont have much to share with their neighbor. Most of the community organizations that serve those communities are in the same boat. Your suggestion also removes a good portion of people who don't attend religious services. Charities are limited in what they can provide.

Unemployment is difficult. For example to be eligible, Florida requires "You must be able to work, available to work, and actively seeking work. This includes being able to get to a job and have child care if necessary." Not many people hiring in the middle of a pandemic and further complicated by the closing of schools.

"Not by throwing money at everybody, most of whom do not need it." ~75% of Americans live paycheck to paycheck and 40% of US citizens cant afford a $400 emergency meaning that most of them do indeed need it.

"Don't shove your political agenda down people's throats in the middle of a pandemic." - You seem upset which I can completely understand in this stressful time but please note; looking to ensure that people, especially children have food to eat and can afford their most basic of bill should not be seen as a political agenda, its simply trying to be a good human.

Re: One way to fight a coronavirus recession: $1k for every American

#214

Post by xyzzyz »

aeternum wrote: post #164
xyzzyz wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another difference would be that QE, as practiced by Fed in 2008-2014, would pay a basic income of around $150/month. Now, consider what inflationary impact would QE have if it was 6 times larger, and perpetuated indefinitely. Then remember that because of the way QE was structured, it had much smaller inflationary impact than directly printing that money and handing it over to government or people. While I'd like fo…

QE likely had a smaller inflationary impact simply because the printed money went only towards treasuries and financial instruments disproportionately benefiting the rich (top 5%). There's a strong argument that this is why it didn't show up in the consumer price index and we've also significantly increased wealth inequality. 12k / year for every american is likely too high. I think the Fed should still determine the…

> I think the Fed should still determine the amount of QE based on inflation and economic metrics, however that QE should be distributed via a UBI rather than used to purchase financial instruments.

But why go the roundabout way of going through QE to pay for UBI? Why not just increase taxes directly?

The answer is, clearly, because once you talk about increasing taxes to pay for something, you start thinking hard about numbers, and having them add up. When you talk about some vague ideas like the above, calculating the impact exactly becomes difficult, so instead one can just throw up their hands in the air and ignore the problem altogether. The impact however stays very real, as real as when you pay for it through taxation.

Re: One way to fight a coronavirus recession: $1k for every American

#215

Post by ianleeclark »

seemslegit wrote: post #197

This won't help a recession one bit as it doesn't incentivize any economic activity. An average 1000$-worth of government-backed loan risk subsidy might be worth considering. With fed interest rates near-zero people with good credit should already be able to get pretty good short term loans and this will help those without a credit score or with a poor one to be able to meet their obligations.

> This won't help a recession one bit as it doesn't incentivize any economic activity

Please explain to me how, in a country where 76% of the population lives paycheck to paycheck, putting more cash in their pocket doesn't stimulate economic activity? When someone loses hours at their job due to no customers coming through, how does making sure that person can still eat not, at bare minimum, ensure they can still eat, not help with economic activity?

> With fed interest rates near-zero people with good credit should already be able to get pretty good short term loans and this will help those without a credit score or with a poor one to be able to meet their obligations.

Oh, cool, we put the fuckers in debt in times of highly uncertain economic horizons, but we'll say it's helping them.

Re: One way to fight a coronavirus recession: $1k for every American

#217

Post by ianleeclark »

bmj wrote: post #154

Romney said that the idea would "help ensure families and workers can meet their short-term obligations and increase spending in the economy." Given that many states are closing all non-essential businesses, where, exactly would the economy be stimulated? Stockpiling more toilet paper? I realize that online retailers are currently still delivering, but how long will that last?

If people see precarious economic conditions, they tend to save more. By having a semblance of a safety net, they're hopefully able to continue similar consumption habits. It's likely that the supply shock were seeing today will die down in a few weeks, which is when this would start to help.

Re: One way to fight a coronavirus recession: $1k for every American

#218

Post by ryanmercer »

ryanmercer wrote: post #141
tjr225 wrote: post #3

Am I way out of band or does that seem like a comically small amount of money for the average American? I live in an extremely low COL area and live well within my current means. Assuming my work dries up and I don't have any savings, 3k$ would buy me two months tops. Just to give you an idea of how cheaply I live: Mortgage is ~800$/mo, Car is a paid off 2006 Toyota Highlander, Student loan minimums of ~400$/mo, My w…

>Am I way out of band or does that seem like a comically small amount of money for the average American? I take home $465.62 a week so it would be a little over 2 weeks of take home pay for me. I could absolutely use that.

To add to this, I am extremely stressed right now. I have an immune-compromised 67 year old parent, I work in international freight, I have a GED so am not too marketable if I lose my job, I've got a few hundred dollars in savings, I've got enough food for a couple of months for my mother and I, that $1000 even just once would help markedly in reducing my stress.

Add to that I'm supposed to be getting married in 68 days and who knows what's going to happen now. I don't even know if the courthouse will be open to get the marriage license (it's only good for 60 days).

None of this is good for my sobriety. 7 months 25 days, 15 hours. I got this. I can keep that number growing.

Re: One way to fight a coronavirus recession: $1k for every American

#219

Post by tomcam »

I assume my curiousity will be downvoted but I ask in a totally bipartisan way: How much would it cost? I’m guessing $157 billion/month given that 157 million people are working. How would it be paid for? I assume it’s just put on the credit card with the other $23 trillion or so we’re in debt?

Both parties have contributed hugely to the debt so don’t assume which side I’m on here. And while I expect to be downvoted I truly want to understand the long-term effects. Not saying I’m against it.

Re: One way to fight a coronavirus recession: $1k for every American

#220

Post by lkbm »

tjr225 wrote: post #3

Am I way out of band or does that seem like a comically small amount of money for the average American? I live in an extremely low COL area and live well within my current means. Assuming my work dries up and I don't have any savings, 3k$ would buy me two months tops. Just to give you an idea of how cheaply I live: Mortgage is ~800$/mo, Car is a paid off 2006 Toyota Highlander, Student loan minimums of ~400$/mo, My w…

I believe Romney's proposal was $1000 per month.

I spend more than $1000/mo in Austin, but my essential costs (rent, food, utilities) have always been $1000 won't cut it for everyone, but it will be enough for a lot of people, and disproportionately enough for people living from paycheck-to-paycheck. They've already had financial pressures to keep their standing expenses low. And keep in mind that this is per adult, not per household.

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