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One way to fight a coronavirus recession: $1k for every American

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Re: One way to fight a coronavirus recession: $1k for every American

#121

Post by mattmanser »

Ididntdothis wrote: post #37

That seems pretty silly. Me and probably a lot of other people would just put it aside and save because we don’t need the money. And for the people in some industries who are at risk of losing their jobs this is laughably little money. In Germany there is a concept called “Kurzarbeit”. Companies reduce work hours and salaries across the board and unemployment insurance makes up for some of it. This way mass layoffs a…

This is classic "me and my friends are rich, therefore everyone else is".

You just don't realize you're in the top 10-20% of earners, and the difficulties of those underneath you.

Re: One way to fight a coronavirus recession: $1k for every American

#123

Post by xyzzyz »

aeternum wrote: post #83
xyzzyz wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Direct, debt free issuance of a citizens dividend to every US citizen. Coupled with a wind-down of the debt bubble. There are three ways to make it possible: 1) issue government debt to pay for it 2) increase taxes to cover it 3) print money to cover it. Number 3) will cause significant inflation, so it will effectively be paid for by tax on cash savings. High inflation is really bad, it’s a terrible idea. 1) has t…

QE already is #3. The Fed is printing money to purchase bonds/treasures/bad mortgages. The printing of money definitely needs to be balanced in order to stabilize inflation, but the fed is doing that. The only difference would be that instead of the Fed injecting the printed money through financial instrument purchases which benefit the top 5%, they would provide it to all citizens as a UBI.

Another difference would be that QE, as practiced by Fed in 2008-2014, would pay a basic income of around $150/month. Now, consider what inflationary impact would QE have if it was 6 times larger, and perpetuated indefinitely. Then remember that because of the way QE was structured, it had much smaller inflationary impact than directly printing that money and handing it over to government or people.

While I'd like for it to be possible to pull $12k/year for every American out of thin air, there's simply no way.

Re: One way to fight a coronavirus recession: $1k for every American

#124

Post by Ididntdothis »

mattmanser wrote: post #121
Ididntdothis wrote: post #37

That seems pretty silly. Me and probably a lot of other people would just put it aside and save because we don’t need the money. And for the people in some industries who are at risk of losing their jobs this is laughably little money. In Germany there is a concept called “Kurzarbeit”. Companies reduce work hours and salaries across the board and unemployment insurance makes up for some of it. This way mass layoffs a…

This is classic "me and my friends are rich, therefore everyone else is". You just don't realize you're in the top 10-20% of earners, and the difficulties of those underneath you.

What I am saying is that more money should be given to people who really need it and no money to people like me (and a lot of HN readers) who don’t need it.

Re: One way to fight a coronavirus recession: $1k for every American

#125

Post by commandlinefan »

Ididntdothis wrote: post #37

That seems pretty silly. Me and probably a lot of other people would just put it aside and save because we don’t need the money. And for the people in some industries who are at risk of losing their jobs this is laughably little money. In Germany there is a concept called “Kurzarbeit”. Companies reduce work hours and salaries across the board and unemployment insurance makes up for some of it. This way mass layoffs a…

> just put it aside and save

You'd better put it aside and save it, because they're going to raise your taxes by $2000 to pay for it.

Re: One way to fight a coronavirus recession: $1k for every American

#126

Post by dionidium »

maximente wrote: post #57

i just don't see how UBI survives a highly polarized, segregated society pumped out by the US media. imagine the headlines by Fox News as soon as they find 4 people living together playing video games all day. or smoking pot. or etc. in a weird way it dangerously exposes people as, according to "the economy", particularly not valuable. the framing will go: these people are literally doing nothing and we're supporting…

imagine the headlines by Fox News as soon as they find 4 people living together playing video games all day. or smoking pot. or etc.

You're right that it'll require a pretty fundamental shift in attitude. Some folks will still think people like that are losers. That's fine. But maybe we'll get to a point where they won't think such people, losers that they may be, are doing anything they're not entitled to be doing. That's the kind of shift in perception that's required to make it work.

We're never going to agree with everyone else's choices. We need to agree that they're entitled to those choices.

Re: One way to fight a coronavirus recession: $1k for every American

#127

Post by ryukafalz »

corebit wrote: post #120
Fargren wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm in a similar situation as the OP, and have heard that argument used for me. I don't like it. In order to live frugally and responsibly, I was lucky to have the upbringing that taught me to do it, and to not have anyone depend on me so that I could focus on getting to this point. I was lucky to live in a relatively wealthy country during a relatively stable time. I made a couple of good decisions, and put in some…

What you call luck is actually a set of economic signals that has incentivized good behavior and teaching good behavior. If your Ferrari-renting, living above their means counterparts are bailed out while your frugal living means are not rewarded, then you are incentivized to live above your means when things return to normal.

There’s also just straight up luck. I was fortunate enough to get a decent job that paid well largely because I knew the right people; I have friends with similar levels of education who aren’t so well off.

They’re not any less thoughtful with their money than I am (in fact probably more so), it’s just a matter of circumstance.

Re: One way to fight a coronavirus recession: $1k for every American

#129

Post by triceratops »

Ididntdothis wrote: post #37

That seems pretty silly. Me and probably a lot of other people would just put it aside and save because we don’t need the money. And for the people in some industries who are at risk of losing their jobs this is laughably little money. In Germany there is a concept called “Kurzarbeit”. Companies reduce work hours and salaries across the board and unemployment insurance makes up for some of it. This way mass layoffs a…

> Companies reduce work hours and salaries across the board and unemployment insurance makes up for some of it.

Isn't that the same overall effect as a lockdown and a direct cash payment?

Re: One way to fight a coronavirus recession: $1k for every American

#130

Post by AnthonyMouse »

wraithKingPrime wrote: post #55
leggomylibro wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, policymakers could re-asses at that point in time if they decided to take an action like this. If you really believe that things will remain disrupted for a long time, it seems like you could see this as a great opportunity for a basic income experiment, huh?

It's borderline irrelevant. I'd want to see things like rent/mortgage payments alleviated or suspended for the duration.

Pretty much everybody has either rent or a mortgage. Therefore giving someone $1000 towards their rent/mortgage is basically equivalent to just giving them $1000, except that it's a ton of extra administrative complexity and it also screws over a few people who somehow don't qualify but still need help.

Whereas if you make the assistance "we pay the amount of your mortgage" instead of "we pay $1000" then you're giving much more of the money to affluent people, who presumably need it less.

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