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Open letter from Italy to the international scientific community

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Re: Open letter from Italy to the international scientific community

#41

Post by smacktoward »

cknoxrun wrote: post #10

My co-founder and I are really struggling with the decisions ahead of us. We feel we should act quickly, and enforce our team to work from home, but the spread in our city is quite low for now. We also wonder how long this can go on, are we going to be isolated for months? We are at a critical point where we have just closed our seed round this past week. We have both put so much energy and time into this moment and…

> the spread in our city is quite low for now

If you’re in the United States, where testing has been infuriatingly limited, the fact of the matter is you have no idea what the spread in your community is. The numbers aren’t low because nobody has the virus, they’re low because nobody has been tested. If we did actual testing, they might come in low or they might come in high, who knows. As it stands, nobody has any real idea just how bad the spread is here. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Given that, the safest course is to assume the spread is high, and act accordingly.

Re: Open letter from Italy to the international scientific community

#42

Post by zozbot234 »

LeoNatan25 wrote: post #12

Here in Israel, ministry of health wanted a full lockdown. But business won, so only a partial lockdown is enforced, and they are shutting down only clubs and restaurants. People will still be able to visit parks, roam freely, etc. Today there was an article [1] that some idiot that was in quarantine left it and was arrested on the street. There is no discipline. A hard lockdown is likely the best option everywhere.…

> Today there was an article [1] that some idiot that was in quarantine left it and was arrested on the street. There is no discipline.

Hopefully he/she was nabbed quickly, without spreading the disease to anyone else. Is Isreal using electronic tagging on those quarantined folks to ensure that they can't just leave their assigned place without anyone knowing about it?

Re: Open letter from Italy to the international scientific community

#43

Post by loeg »

itcrowd wrote: post #4

Not sure why this is on the number 1 spot currently. This is a letter signed by non-experts (albeit sometimes scientists/engineers). To me, it comes off as the climate-change denier letters or 9/11 "truthers" letters. Please let the experts do their job. Don't spread uninformed opinions backed up by Facebook posts and panicked researchers with expertise "relevant to virus spreading" such as electronics, architecture…

Nothing in this letter is inaccurate or goes against what the scientific experts have been saying. When you say "experts," you're really talking about the bureaucrats and politicians who get to make these decisions and have been too hesitant to ramp up testing and quarantine measures.

Re: Open letter from Italy to the international scientific community

#44

Post by tuna-piano »

lbeltrame wrote: post #36

As an Italian, I raise my eyebrows every time China is mentioned as an example for the successful containment of this virus. It could do that because it could afford to take the economical hit and because it is an authoritarian state, which means you can get almost everyone to obey, in one way or another. Also, the Chinese Party is what caused this mess to begin with, by allowing this virus to spread all around the w…

Just like China, there was a time when Italy had 1 case, then 2 cases, then 4, etc. Italy was unable to stop the spread before reaching a huge level and spreading to other countries.

Why blame China for "allowing this virus to spread all around the world" when Italy allowed the same?

(Italy even had a warning that it was coming!)

Re: Open letter from Italy to the international scientific community

#45

Post by cknoxrun »

jfkebwjsbx wrote: post #30
cknoxrun wrote: post #10

My co-founder and I are really struggling with the decisions ahead of us. We feel we should act quickly, and enforce our team to work from home, but the spread in our city is quite low for now. We also wonder how long this can go on, are we going to be isolated for months? We are at a critical point where we have just closed our seed round this past week. We have both put so much energy and time into this moment and…

Are you kidding? You should have implemented WoH weeks ago. Thinking whether or not doing it now is a disservice to all humanity and a testament of why we have reached this situation as a society.

The first case only just made its way to our city a couple of days ago. We have been rather distracted of course by getting signatures and cheques. For context, our schools and daycares are still open, as are city rec centers, gyms, and public transit. Only yesterday did the province recommend no gatherings over 250 people. Perhaps we should have been quicker, but here we are.

Re: Open letter from Italy to the international scientific community

#46

Post by delegate »

I've seen comments here trying to play down the message or discredit the signatories of this letter. Don't.

Please take it seriously. This is not sensationalism.

What the letter means is that if your country is not there yet, you might be DAYS away from widespread panic and total lock down.

I'm writing this from Barcelona, Spain. This last Sunday, 6 days ago, I went on a walk with my girlfriend, had a nice lunch, took beautiful pictures...

The virus was just some nagging news.. A couple of hundred people infected somewhere far away.

6 days later, we're at over 6000 infections, the country is in total lock down.

Same pattern as Italy (even faster), we're just a couple of days away before tens of thousands is reached. This is what exponential growth means.

Re: Open letter from Italy to the international scientific community

#47

Post by ComputerGuru »

lbeltrame wrote: post #36

As an Italian, I raise my eyebrows every time China is mentioned as an example for the successful containment of this virus. It could do that because it could afford to take the economical hit and because it is an authoritarian state, which means you can get almost everyone to obey, in one way or another. Also, the Chinese Party is what caused this mess to begin with, by allowing this virus to spread all around the w…

You can’t fast track things past what they’ve already been fast tracked. Stop second guessing the experts. What is the use of a hurried vaccine tomorrow if next month it turns out to cause birth defects or global infertility or cancer.

Re: Open letter from Italy to the international scientific community

#48

Post by wnkrshm »

edgecrafter wrote: post #14
itcrowd wrote: post #4

Not sure why this is on the number 1 spot currently. This is a letter signed by non-experts (albeit sometimes scientists/engineers). To me, it comes off as the climate-change denier letters or 9/11 "truthers" letters. Please let the experts do their job. Don't spread uninformed opinions backed up by Facebook posts and panicked researchers with expertise "relevant to virus spreading" such as electronics, architecture…

I hope you haven't read the reports from the medical frontline in Lombardie - They are making life or death choices now due to influx of ICU patient without enough equipment and medical staff exhausted and starting to get sick themselves One frontline story among many here https://twitter.com/jasonvanschoor/status/123714289107769753...

Triage, i.e. if you show up and have any condition that reduces your chances of survival you are not treated at all. Palliative care only.

Re: Open letter from Italy to the international scientific community

#49

Post by lbeltrame »

edgecrafter wrote: post #14
itcrowd wrote: post #4

Not sure why this is on the number 1 spot currently. This is a letter signed by non-experts (albeit sometimes scientists/engineers). To me, it comes off as the climate-change denier letters or 9/11 "truthers" letters. Please let the experts do their job. Don't spread uninformed opinions backed up by Facebook posts and panicked researchers with expertise "relevant to virus spreading" such as electronics, architecture…

I hope you haven't read the reports from the medical frontline in Lombardie - They are making life or death choices now due to influx of ICU patient without enough equipment and medical staff exhausted and starting to get sick themselves One frontline story among many here https://twitter.com/jasonvanschoor/status/123714289107769753...

Also the government, despite sounding enlightened and getting most of the praise of the press, is locking everyone up with exceptional measures, but still goes the bureaucratic way to procure respirators (which are essential in the current emergency, and they are needed now, not in the two weeks required for the lockdown to show any effect) and masks (either useless because not certified for medical use, or stuck in a warehouse due to "missing authorizations").

At this point my region (Lombardia) appointed someone with the sole task of getting an emergency hospital up in Milano to house more patients, doing whatever it takes. Hopefully this will help.

Re: Open letter from Italy to the international scientific community

#50

Post by chrisseaton »

rozab wrote: post #13
itcrowd wrote: post #4

Not sure why this is on the number 1 spot currently. This is a letter signed by non-experts (albeit sometimes scientists/engineers). To me, it comes off as the climate-change denier letters or 9/11 "truthers" letters. Please let the experts do their job. Don't spread uninformed opinions backed up by Facebook posts and panicked researchers with expertise "relevant to virus spreading" such as electronics, architecture…

This letter doesn't make any contraversial scientific claims. Please, highlight anything you think is in doubt?

> The virus is spreading at maximum speed,

How do you determine scientifically the 'maximum' speed that a virus could be spreading?

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