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Glitch employees vote to form union, joining CWA

cwa-union.org

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Re: Glitch employees vote to form union, joining CWA

#141

Post by Apocryphon »

manfredo wrote: post #132
Apocryphon wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, but the fact that there's any movement in the industry at all, stories generating discussions such as this one, groups like the Tech Workers Coalition gaining attention, etc., can mean there's some trend shifting. Unless you think the news is selectively focusing on stories to cover and this is all media manufactured. And when change occurs, whether a social trend, or new product type, or whatever- the pioneer…

> Right, but the fact that there's any movement in the industry at all, stories generating discussions such as this one, groups like the Tech Workers Coalition gaining attention, etc., can mean there's some trend shifting. Unless you think the news is selectively focusing on stories to cover and this is all media manufactured. Again, don't conflate discussion and attention with actual change. People who produce the n…

The decline of unionization in America has been noted for a long time. What's noteworthy is interest in unionizing in tech for the first time. And actual change usually requires prior discussion. Those 350 workers at least provide a small model and symbolic inspiration for future efforts.

Re: Glitch employees vote to form union, joining CWA

#142

Post by hinkley »

gadders wrote: post #22

Interesting development. Glitch used to be Fog Creek, where Joel Spolsky talked of treating developers well (latest hardware, private offices etc) and paying them well. I wonder if the culture has changed and that's why the developers felt the need to create a union. [ https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2006/09/07/a-field-guide-to-d... ]

Joel talking about the great care they took to build their offices (in a way that I felt was a huge mistake) was sort of the beginning of me realizing that he doesn't get everything right.

There's also an uncanny valley effect, where ignoring a problem entirely means that your employees may have needs they aren't aware of, and as soon as you shine a light on it, their job satisfaction is actually lower until you get it right.

I think a couple of my bosses understood this intuitively and would invite us to participate in developing solutions. We are much more patient with ourselves than with others.

Re: Glitch employees vote to form union, joining CWA

#143

Post by fogetti »

ColonelSanders wrote: post #140
fogetti wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Saying that they can become managers is like saying they can become the president of the U.S. The point is that you cannot become a manager at all if you disagree with management in the first place (and that doesn't mean you don't have the chops). Also the number of management seats are limited. The number of union seats has no upper limit.

> Saying that they can become managers is like saying they can become the president of the U.S. I don't think that analogy is proportional, since that'd make a manager at a furniture store on par with a head of state. But I get it, there isn't unlimited management roles. Because if there were, everyone would be on their own. If you want to influence and shape business decisions - you want to be a manager. How do you…

I think you don't understand what I said. You can't climb the ladder if you disagree with management. And that's not because you have no talent and management has the talent. There is no such correlation.

Is this clear now or do you need more help to understand?

Re: Glitch employees vote to form union, joining CWA

#144

Post by SpicyLemonZest »

vangelis wrote: post #102
chrisco255 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My concern as a libertarian is that unionizing tech will lead to calcification, decline of agility and innovation, and diversity of business structure. There's no question that the U.S. has been more innovative in tech than other countries over the past few decades. That's thanks to an entrepreneurial culture that encourages risk taking. Unions attempt to limit risk to employees. In doing so, they limit the agility o…

Funny, I feel the same way about MBA mills and slash and burn private equity firms.

That's a pretty universal viewpoint. Even the most business-friendly people would be skeptical of someone saying that private equity "warms their heart", or talking about how we need to stop MBA-busting and reverse the "liberal anti-MBA backlash".

Re: Glitch employees vote to form union, joining CWA

#145

Post by hinkley »

sevenf0ur wrote: post #63
kyoob wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's usually a percentage of workers' paychecks, between 1-2% is pretty standard. Founding, organizing, and legal stuff for newly forming unions can be handled by the larger organization (e.g. CWA) using pooled dues from existing unions within that organization.

Losing that much per paycheck with nothing guaranteed in return would chaff me after awhile. I hope it works out for them.

How much of a paycut would you take for getting a guaranteed max 40 (or say, 45) hour work week with no retribution from management?

Put it this way, when I worked at startups that owed me a raise they couldn't afford, I've offered several times to take a 0% raise in exchange for a 10% reduction in hours. Not a single company has taken that offer and several thought I was trying to be funny.

I was not.

Re: Glitch employees vote to form union, joining CWA

#146

Post by SpicyLemonZest »

olyjohn wrote: post #107
dantheman wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is a government problem, the government gave unions special rights that other organizations don't have. It's easy to fix, treat them like any other organization.

Not trying to be snarky, but what rights do unions have that others don't?

They have a lot of exclusivity and pseudo-exclusivity rights. For example, nobody's typically allowed to cut side deal better than the union contract, and the union can require even employees who don't like the union to fund their collective bargaining.

Re: Glitch employees vote to form union, joining CWA

#147

Post by Apocryphon »

hinkley wrote: post #142
gadders wrote: post #22

Interesting development. Glitch used to be Fog Creek, where Joel Spolsky talked of treating developers well (latest hardware, private offices etc) and paying them well. I wonder if the culture has changed and that's why the developers felt the need to create a union. [ https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2006/09/07/a-field-guide-to-d... ]

Joel talking about the great care they took to build their offices (in a way that I felt was a huge mistake) was sort of the beginning of me realizing that he doesn't get everything right. There's also an uncanny valley effect, where ignoring a problem entirely means that your employees may have needs they aren't aware of, and as soon as you shine a light on it, their job satisfaction is actually lower until you get…

What's wrong with how they built their offices, in your opinion?

Re: Glitch employees vote to form union, joining CWA

#148

Post by ridv »

I hope the CWA treats them better than they treat the SUNY grad students they represent.

All State University of New York graduate students are also represented by CWA. [1] Out of the lowly salary I earned as a grad student, I had to pay dues to them throughout the entire five years I spent in grad school. I never felt like they particularly cared about us or got to see a return on this investment.

They made a show of coming by the campus once in a while, especially when elections were happening, but other than that I can't recall a single time where I felt it was beneficial to be part of the CWA.

[1] https://cwa1104.com/apprenticeship-program

Re: Glitch employees vote to form union, joining CWA

#149

Post by fiter »

dragonwriter wrote: post #119
fiter wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you implying that public prosecutors have the option to not interact with criminal defense attorneys, because companies certainly have the option to hire employees that do not work for unions.

> Are you implying that public prosecutors have the option to not interact with criminal defense attorneys, No, I'm implying that working for an actor’s counterparty compromises your ability to represent that actor in adversarial interactions with the same counterparty, which is a core function of unions with respect to employers as it is with defense attorneys with respect to prosecutors. > companies certainly have…

You're even more compromised if you are removed.

In the US, do you think companies have not moved manufacturing from union plants to non-union plants? Do you think they have not moved manufacturing out of US plants? Do you think this does not have to do with union membership?

I believe the adversarial view of unions and employers results in inefficiency and waste. I was suggesting an alternative view of unions and employers, but I believe I now understand you: you think this is impossible.

Re: Glitch employees vote to form union, joining CWA

#150

Post by SpicyLemonZest »

Apocryphon wrote: post #108
larrywright wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not sure why you’re getting downvoted, what you’re posting is accurate. I had a former employee who worked as a software developer at a company that had union electricians. One day he got a new monitor, but it had to sit idle on his desk until an electrician could come and plug it into the wall. He had to occasionally adjust controls that were slotted (potentiometers). He had a little screwdriver that he kept in…

I think these real-life anecdotes of the downside of unions are helpful data points, because they should be addressed if new unions are to form, whether in tech or elsewhere. The important thing to remember though is that bad experiences in of themselves are no reason to write off a category of organization, or to assume no improvement is possible. Where would our industry be if we just assumed riding taxis would alw…

I agree with what you're saying, but a major concern here is that new unions aren't forming. Glitch workers didn't form Glitch Workers' United. Instead they glued themselves into a large preexisting CWA local - just as Kickstarter before them attached to an OPEIU local - which means they'll be organizing in CWA-approved ways and their funds will go towards the CWA's preexisting social and political causes. Attaching yourself to existing powerhouses seems to be the model of modern American unionization, and it doesn't really allow for much experimentation.
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