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Chelsea Manning ordered to be released [pdf]

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Re: Chelsea Manning ordered to be released [pdf]

#331

Post by wdn »

jacobolus wrote: post #142
cfv wrote: post #120

What's the legal reasoning (if there's any) to keep her locked up and ruin her financially while not being able to swing the same punishment at all those people who refused to testify in the recent impeachment?

The reasoning is that the DOJ under Barr (and the administration in general) has no interest in cooperating with Congress or fulfilling their constitutional/legal obligations. If the Congress really wants it can enforce its own subpoenas by putting anyone who refuses to testify in their own jail, without asking the DOJ for help. This is a power that hasn’t been used since 1934, and the current Congress has opted to w…

Did you even watch the impeachment trail from the Democrats congress? It is a disgrace. It is like you get sued but not allow to defend yourself. Law scholar Jonathan Turley testified under Democrats' criteria for impeachment, no one is unimpeachable, even George Washington himself would be impeached.

Re: Chelsea Manning ordered to be released [pdf]

#332

Post by LessDmesg »

michaelmrose wrote: post #284
surge wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So do it again. Honestly though, I think the impeachment just pointed out the Ukraine stuff about as much as it pointed out Trump's phone call shenanigans, it wasn't good for them politically to keep at it, his approval rating was going up and he was raising tons of money during it. It was backfiring politically for them, the majority of the public wasn't interested (especially after the Russia thing coming up empty,…

The Ukraine "stuff" was a conspiracy theory. The Russian "thing" was an actual collaboration between our enemies and our presidents flunkys that nobody seriously denied happened.

Both of those things were hoaxes by the Democrats. Pathetic power struggles to distract the public's eye from the real problems that ordinary people face. Who cares if some Russian hackers got some access to the DNC servers? That didn't affect the actual election results, not one whit.

Re: Chelsea Manning ordered to be released [pdf]

#333

Post by SolarNet »

onenine wrote: post #206
SolarNet wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Secret politically motivated court systems. Using a method which has been called incompatible with basic human rights (by the EU), has been labeled as torture (by the UN), and compared to the governmental processes of countries like North Korea, China, and Iran (by various reporters). Also notably the immunity they granted her would not have protected her from various other legal troubles. The law in question (which…

The top of this order: By Order dated May 6, 2019 [Doc. 2], the Court granted Chelsea Manning full use and derivative use immunity, pursuant to 18 U.S.C. § 6002, and ordered Ms. Manning to testify and provide other information in the above-captioned grand jury proceeding ("Grand Jury"). All she had to do was testify truthfully about the matters she was being asked about. Fifth amendment is irrelevant in this context.

Read 18 U.S.C. § 6002 it does not grant blanket immunity. If I testify truthfully and reveal perjury in the past I can be tried for that perjury now.

Again, this violates the 5th amendment.

Re: Chelsea Manning ordered to be released [pdf]

#334

Post by magduf »

surge wrote: post #165
jacobolus wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reasoning is that the DOJ under Barr (and the administration in general) has no interest in cooperating with Congress or fulfilling their constitutional/legal obligations. If the Congress really wants it can enforce its own subpoenas by putting anyone who refuses to testify in their own jail, without asking the DOJ for help. This is a power that hasn’t been used since 1934, and the current Congress has opted to w…

Actually the way to settle differences between the branches is to use the third branch, the Judicial branch. Congress takes them to supreme/federal court, which decides if the subpoenas are valid and would then enforce the subpoenas and the executive branch then has to comply. Basic checks and balances. https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/12/house-demo... https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/01/d…

The checks and balances don't work as designed, and haven't for a long time. Any time there's a government shutdown that lasts for more than a couple of days, that's proof that this is simply a system too flawed to keep.

A better system is a parliamentary system: in those, you don't have conflicts often between the branches, because the executive is chosen by parliament itself. And in the rare case there is a conflict, you can dissolve parliament, have a new election, then the new parliament can choose a new PM and life continues.

There's a reason every stable, advanced, democratic republic in the world has a parliamentary system instead of one like the US's. The US's system is more similar to those in Russia and Turkey.

Re: Chelsea Manning ordered to be released [pdf]

#335

Post by dang »

LessDmesg wrote: post #289
dang wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe so, but please don't post unsubstantive comments, and in particular not name-calling fulmination, to Hacker News. We're trying for something different than that here: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html The fines against Manning have been commented on repeatedly and extensively in this very thread. The only thing your comment adds is rage, which we have already have a surplus of, even if it's all j…

Flamewars are fun, you're not. Humans are fundamentally emotional beings.

Sure, but this site is organized around the emotion of curiosity, which flamewars trample.

Re: Chelsea Manning ordered to be released [pdf]

#336

Post by dragonwriter »

greg7mdp wrote: post #233

Her prolonged imprisonment in inhumane conditions is an ugly stain on Obama's presidency. I remember when he campaigned praising whistleblowers and government openness.

Chelsea Manning is not a whistleblower, she's a person who felt (for good cause, I do not deny) mistreated by the military and indiscriminately leaked classified information in response. Her actions were neither motivated by nor tailored to revealing specific wrongdoing, nor were they either directed through the channels designed for reporting wrongdoing, nor did they avoid such channels because proper channels for reporting specific wrongdoing had been tried and failed, nor did they avoid proper channels because of specific grounded belief that reporting wrongdoing through those channels would be counterproductive.

I understand the desire for a simple narrative where desirable results only come from morally pure actions and where in a conflict there is one side that is virtuous and one that is villainous, but in the Manning case I don't think any such simple narrative is possible without grossly distorting the facts.

Manning was at best unduly stressed by active bigotry and most likely specifically mistreated prior to th leaks, and possibly psychologically unsuited for wartime military service even if the service itself wasn't actively bigoted.

Manning did then indiscriminately leak sensitive defense information with the intent and reason to believe that it would cause harm to the US war effort. This did, however, include (but was by no means focussed on) information related to actual and apparent wrongdoing, especially actual and apparent war crimes, by US forces.

Manning was subsequently, while in military custody, subjected to gross violations of her human rights and basic dignity not attached to any lawful conditions of pre-trial incarceration or post-conviction punishment.

Re: Chelsea Manning ordered to be released [pdf]

#337

Post by krapp »

LessDmesg wrote: post #327
krapp wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt it. Trump supporters will blame any negative effects on Democrats and the liberal media conspiracy spreading panic and misinformation in order to sabotage him as they already do.

And the fault is with the Democrat media. CNN, NY Times rtc have been demonizing Trump so much and in such a biased way that they've turned themselves into fake news.

[flagged]

Re: Chelsea Manning ordered to be released [pdf]

#338

Post by surge »

creato wrote: post #266
surge wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the part where I remind people that Obama drone striked a 16 year old US citizen without trial in a non active war zone and a cafe full of civilians because someone bad might be there (and wasn't so just killed a bunch of innocent people). That's a war crime tantamount to murder. You're right in some respects Obama is worse. I definitely feel like I could have a beer with him, but fuck me if he didn't do thin…

> but fuck me if he didn't do things as bad as Bush or worse. If you actually believe this, you grossly lack a sense of scale. Multiplying Obama's actions by 100 doesn't come close to starting the Iraq war.

He continued the war, he didn't pull out as promised.

Got involved in Syria.

He kept Guantanamo open.

He upped the number of drone strikes. Knowingly killed a 16 year old US citizen who was not an enemy combatant or in a country like Iraq or Afghanistan.

He extended the Patriot Act.

All things he criticized Bush for.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2016/11/14/13577464/...

Re: Chelsea Manning ordered to be released [pdf]

#339

Post by closeparen »

baryphonic wrote: post #313
closeparen wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Contempt is not society’s punishment for anything. It’s a tool the judge can use to extract your cooperation with a specific demand. Not as revenge.

Though there is common law contempt, in the US it has been codified in statutory law[1]. The text of the law states that it is indeed a punishment for disobedience with the court. In general, "revenge" is not the aim of any administration of justice; however, punishment is a tool, for better or worse, that is used in an attempt to achieve justice. Punishment is also the type of remedy that the state can do well. The…

You're right, there is such a thing as criminal contempt, which can be used punitively. But it is a crime for which you have to be charged and convicted. Chelsea Manning's contempt is the civil variety, which must have a coercive purpose.

Re: Chelsea Manning ordered to be released [pdf]

#340

Post by magduf »

ramphastidae wrote: post #171
lostgame wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Especially given its current leadership, I often turn away jobs of more than two times my salary - in USD (I live in Canada) - to avoid living in America. That Trump ever got elected - or was ever seriously considered as a candidate - tells me that enough of the the population is seriously disturbed that I’d like nothing to do with it. And then there’s the war atrocities...

You’d probably lose the extra salary to overpriced and subpar health insurance, education, housing, and retirement.

Not really, no. It depends on your situation. If you're fairly young, single, healthy, and have no kids, and can live cheaply, that difference in salary will quickly amount to a lot of savings.

Basically, the US is a good place to make a lot of money, esp. in the tech sector, as long as you avoid spending like a drunken sailor or getting married and having kids. Health insurance is expensive, but the much higher salaries much more than make up for that (but maybe not so much if you're supporting a wife and 3 kids). Education isn't an issue, or shouldn't be: the scenario we're talking about here is someone who's already out of college. (But here again, having kids will ruin the advantage, if you're paying for them to go to college.) Housing is overpriced in the US, yes, but it is in Canada too. If you think anyplace outside the Bay Area is bad, try looking at housing prices in Vancouver BC.

As for retirement, there's a reason so many US citizens become expats when they retire and move to places like Costa Rica.

Where the US really falls down is if you need a social safety net, if you have health issues (which can result in medical bankruptcy in the US), if you want to retire and not eat cat food, if you want to go to college without being saddled with enormous debt, etc. But if you have tech skills and can snag a high-paying tech job in the US, you'll probably save a lot more money for that time. But you should have an exit plan. A lot of people from places like India come here and work and live for many years, saving up a lot of money, and then go back home and live like kings.

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