Chelsea Manning ordered to be released [pdf] • Hacker News Board

Re: Chelsea Manning ordered to be released [pdf]

#321

Post by paulddraper » Fri, Mar 13, 2020, 1:35 PM UTC

0xff00ffee wrote: post #137

paulddraper wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Presidents being impeached (and their administrations) have always refused Congress's requests for testimony and documentation. Congress can take the President to court and compel documents and testimony (or else face contempt of court and imprisonment like Manning). The House did exactly that for Nixon and Cliton. For Trump, the House chose not to do that, because (I believe) it would slow them down, and that wasn't…

How was Clinton testifying also him refusing to testify? Your claims differ from history.

The impeachment inquiry started exactly because of an allegation of perjury.

The ratified Articles of Impeachment were in fact (1) Perjury and (2) Obstruction of Justice (witness/evidence tampering).

I may have mistakenly characterized Clinton as explicitly withholding information by invoking executive privilege like Nixon and Trump, rather than deceptively doing so.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impeachment_of_Bill_Clinton#Ar...

Re: Chelsea Manning ordered to be released [pdf]

#322

Post by mcherm » Fri, Mar 13, 2020, 1:44 PM UTC

raxxorrax wrote: post #320

michaelmrose wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Ukraine "stuff" was a conspiracy theory. The Russian "thing" was an actual collaboration between our enemies and our presidents flunkys that nobody seriously denied happened.

I don't think so. The American meddling in Ukraine before Trump even was in office is highly suspicious. You could argue that it was a justified reaction to the Crimean invasion, but saying there wasn't any stuff is completely dishonest. Biden pressured Ukraine to fire a public defender. He was even praised for doing so. This hypocrisy seriously damages any credibility of those accusing Trump of meddling in Ukraine.…

In your post you said several things about "Biden". Could you clarify just who that is? I believe there is an intentional rhetorical trick being used to conflate to people with that surname. I can't say whether your use of it was intentional, but it would help if you clarified who you were talking about.

Re: Chelsea Manning ordered to be released [pdf]

#323

Post by bufferoverflow » Fri, Mar 13, 2020, 1:59 PM UTC

cultus wrote: post #87

I sure hope she leaves the country after this. This will keep happening for the rest of her life. You really don't want to run afoul of the security apparatus.

I hope she stays. The country needs more people like Manning.

Re: Chelsea Manning ordered to be released [pdf]

#324

Post by RationalThinker » Fri, Mar 13, 2020, 2:00 PM UTC

wtallis wrote: post #250

lopmotr wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Before you write off 50 million people as "seriously disturbed", you should find out their motives. Not the cherry-picked mockery of them you see on social media, but their more common motives. To make such a crude judgement as you did, you have to be ignoring some huge factor. If you conclude that factor is "they're stupid" or "they're evil", then you haven't found it. This applies generally to many controversial id…

> If you conclude that factor is "they're stupid" or "they're evil", then you haven't found it. You seem to be dismissing those explanations simply because you don't like them and you reject the idea that it could be true of so many people. But you aren't actually providing any evidence against these explanations. Simply exaggerating them to the point that you think they can be dismissed as unreal doesn't work. There…

I voted for Trump. Trump campaigned on jobs. And he delivered tremendously (record low unemployment rate).

This is one of the reasons why many people will vote for him again in 2020.

Re: Chelsea Manning ordered to be released [pdf]

#325

Post by RationalThinker » Fri, Mar 13, 2020, 2:12 PM UTC

krapp wrote: post #223

lonelappde wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How great must someone's economic prospects be before to earn before it's no longer OK to be homophobic, racist, xenophobic and voting and voting for someone cynically exploit their ignorance? How is their misery somehow a reason that makes them required to vote for not just a Republican no matter what but the worst possible one who is not even a conservative but looks our for absolutely no one's interests on any sid…

The real question is, why are they going to vote for him again despite his failure to deliver on any of his promises, or to display even a modicum of competence at his job? And when, after another four years, the wall still hasn't been built, globalism and automation still haven't been dismantled and the mines and domestic factories still haven't reopened, America's prestige still hasn't been restored, China still ha…

>The real question is, why are they going to vote for him again despite his failure to deliver on any of his promises..

Well, let's look at what he has delivered so far...

He ended the Korean War. He pulled out of Syria. He pulled out of Afghanistan. ISIS is dead and the Taliban wants peace. He's building the wall. He brought jobs back and created millions more jobs. People don't have to depend on welfare anymore. Unemployment rate is at it's lowest. He did prison reform, and many people have been released already. He established economic zones in the Black community to help small black business owners (so that they pay lower taxes).

We are happy with what he has accomplished so far, and that's why they we going to vote for him again in 2020.

Re: Chelsea Manning ordered to be released [pdf]

#326

Post by RationalThinker » Fri, Mar 13, 2020, 2:19 PM UTC

aeyes wrote: post #175

lopmotr wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Before you write off 50 million people as "seriously disturbed", you should find out their motives. Not the cherry-picked mockery of them you see on social media, but their more common motives. To make such a crude judgement as you did, you have to be ignoring some huge factor. If you conclude that factor is "they're stupid" or "they're evil", then you haven't found it. This applies generally to many controversial id…

If you know their motives, would you please be kind enough to share them with us? As an outsider it is kind of hard to see through superficial news posts.

>If you know their motives, would you please be kind enough to share them with us?

For me, it was the jobs.

Trump campaigned on bringing jobs back, on creating more jobs, and on reopening factories and mines.

I voted for him because he looks like he could deliver. And he did (record low unemployment rate).

Re: Chelsea Manning ordered to be released [pdf]

#327

Post by LessDmesg » Fri, Mar 13, 2020, 2:20 PM UTC

krapp wrote: post #318

kortilla wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This virus may change that. Until this point unemployment was quite low and the stock and housing markets were doing well. Nearly everything takes a backseat to the economy for American voters, despite what they say.

I doubt it. Trump supporters will blame any negative effects on Democrats and the liberal media conspiracy spreading panic and misinformation in order to sabotage him as they already do.

And the fault is with the Democrat media. CNN, NY Times rtc have been demonizing Trump so much and in such a biased way that they've turned themselves into fake news.

Re: Chelsea Manning ordered to be released [pdf]

#328

Post by 0xffff2 » Fri, Mar 13, 2020, 2:55 PM UTC

surge wrote: post #165

jacobolus wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reasoning is that the DOJ under Barr (and the administration in general) has no interest in cooperating with Congress or fulfilling their constitutional/legal obligations. If the Congress really wants it can enforce its own subpoenas by putting anyone who refuses to testify in their own jail, without asking the DOJ for help. This is a power that hasn’t been used since 1934, and the current Congress has opted to w…

Actually the way to settle differences between the branches is to use the third branch, the Judicial branch. Congress takes them to supreme/federal court, which decides if the subpoenas are valid and would then enforce the subpoenas and the executive branch then has to comply. Basic checks and balances. https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/12/house-demo... https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/01/d…

Congress did that and an appeals court decided they didn't want to get involved [0]. The checks and balances are clearly no longer functioning. It's unclear to me what we're supposed to do about that.

[0]: https://www.cnn.com/2020/02/28/politics/mcgahn-testimony-rul...

Re: Chelsea Manning ordered to be released [pdf]

#329

Post by Melting_Harps » Fri, Mar 13, 2020, 3:05 PM UTC

greg7mdp wrote: post #233

Her prolonged imprisonment in inhumane conditions is an ugly stain on Obama's presidency. I remember when he campaigned praising whistleblowers and government openness.

> Her prolonged imprisonment in inhumane conditions is an ugly stain on Obama's presidency. I remember when he campaigned praising whistle-blowers and government openness.

And Trump praised Wikileaks, and by extension Julian Assange, during his campaign and now [1] look at where things are?

The sooner people realize the type of person drawn to politics is inherently the same (supposed party factions and names are irrelevant when looked at objectively and by outcome) and have ALL lied and manipulated to get to the position to do so, the better we will be as a Species and will hopefully lead to building viable alternatives.

These people are the epitome of the narcissistic, sociopaths everyone rants running large corporations, except these are they type who will do and say anything to be elected: this is why I think seeing your Trumps or Berlusconi be elected would be useful if people were open to seeing it for it what truly is. Instead you get division and discord when we all intuitively realize that this is a myopic system that always leads to this inevitable outcome.

Every politician is the same as Trump and Berlusconi, they just hide it better.

If there was a time for this kind of Governance, and I grant you it may have been useful during initial colonization/Industrialization; it has since become clear with how this, environmental ecocide, financial/banking malfeasance, climate change, and now Corona Virus pandemics are handled that it HAS LONG exceed its last glimmer of utility.

1: https://www.msn.com/en-xl/news/other/us-assange-and-wikileak...

Re: Chelsea Manning ordered to be released [pdf]

#330

Post by panzagl » Fri, Mar 13, 2020, 3:06 PM UTC

SlowRobotAhead wrote: post #79

kick wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

She was a whistleblower, hence everyone with a hint of credibility saying she was. Also, it's customary on HN to point out when you have a conflict of interest. You work for a military contractor & used to work for the government, and probably should disclose that when talking about a subject so closely tied to your work.

Can you help me understand the difference between leaker and whistleblower?

A 'whistleblower' has protections gained by following the correct procedure to identify improper/criminal behavior first. If those actions result in punishment you can bring a suit against the offending party.