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Why some governments appear not to be acting on the Covid-19 threat

ma.ttias.be

381–390 of 436 posts

Re: Why some governments appear not to be acting on the Covid-19 threat

#381

Denmark did act yesterday evening & today: - events with more than 100 people forbidden. - all schools will close - all non-critical employees must stay home. - all private employees off-job as much as possible. - stay in your home. - don't travel to [many] countries, more restricts will come. - All indoor cultural institutions, libraries, leisure facilities, etc. are closed. And today they made a temporary law which…

Freedom of assembly is at an equal level of importance, legally, in the USA, to freedom of speech; they’re set forth in the same amendment. Culturally, freedom of assembly is, if anything, MORE significant for Americans than freedom of speech, it’s just not relevant to Internet forums, so you don’t hear it much discussed online. Neither right is absolute.

What are you trying to express ?

Re: Why some governments appear not to be acting on the Covid-19 threat

#382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mathematically wrong is not a relevant category here. There is no "ground truth" that is approximated by an exponential growth. Every disease model is counterfactual "spread of the disease if no countermeasures were taken", etc... Modelling the beginning of an epidemic as exponential growth is useful, sensible and empirically validated. As, countermeasures are taken during the beginning of the epidemic, for discussio…

I don't find any differentiation between early stage and later stage nor references to exponential functions: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_modelling_of_infe... If you find any source, idealy scientific papers on the subject, that shows that contagious diseases can be modelled with simple exponential functions, please share them. I am not an expert on that matter, so I would be really interessted to see…

In your link, look at this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_modelling_of_infe...

S = N - I - R, and lets used normalized ratios, so i = I/N, r = R/N, etc... so the dynamics of i are given by:

di/dt = beta (1 - i - r) i - gamma i

di/dt = (beta - gamma) i - beta (i^2 + ri)

At the beginning of the disease, the ratio of infected and recovered is very small, say 1e-5 for 100 cases in a population of 10 million. So initially the second term is 1e-10 whereas the first is 1e-5. The initial dynamics of a new disease are given by:

di/dt ~ (beta - gamma) i

exponential growth. It will start deviating from exponential growth once i becomes large enough. If 10% of the population have had the disease it will deviate from exponential growth by 10%. Once it gets to half the population being infected or recovered you start seeing a real deviation.

In reality this might never happen, because we are taking a lot of measures to get beta down. So really you have something like

di/dt ~ (beta(t) - gamma) i

where beta(t) will capture all the countermeasures people take. If the countermeasures are effective and manage to push beta(t) below gamma before a large chunk of the population is infected, we might never see non-exponential behaviour from the disease. It will have an exponentially growing phase, and then an exponentially shrinking phase.

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Here is just one paper I found with two seconds of google that looks at this, very recent, a bit basic:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6962332/

But here is what it says in the abstract:

"The initial exponential growth rate of an epidemic is an important measure of the severeness of the epidemic, and is also closely related to the basic reproduction number."

"Classical compartmental transmission models assume exponential growth during the early phase of a well-mixed population"

Re: Why some governments appear not to be acting on the Covid-19 threat

#383
Here is a discussion of some of the numbers and models. It's in German but I guess deepL should give a reasonable translation. One part of an answer that I extract from this article is that it's complicated. People do have more sophisticated models (see some of the ones mentioned in the article), the issue is these require more parameter inputs with significant uncertainties (we really don't have enough information on the virus yet). if some government would come out and say this is the model we are using you would immediately have lots of discussion about the validity and how everything would be easy peasy if we just change this parameter. Another aspect is probably that accurate modelling is not the primary focus right now.

Re: Why some governments appear not to be acting on the Covid-19 threat

#384
post #2

Doesn't seem very well thought out. The economic cost of the first scenario (numerous deaths in peak period) would likely be the highest with the impact both on workforce and market sentiment. The impact of long tail scenarios lower because death toll would not be just redistributed but also reduced by likely an order of magnitude.

Most of the deaths will be of retirees, not workers. The fast as possible scenario is preferable from a purely economic standpoint.

Re: Why some governments appear not to be acting on the Covid-19 threat

#385

Here is a discussion of some of the numbers and models. It's in German but I guess deepL should give a reasonable translation. One part of an answer that I extract from this article is that it's complicated. People do have more sophisticated models (see some of the ones mentioned in the article), the issue is these require more parameter inputs with significant uncertainties (we really don't have enough information o…

Sorry missed to paste the link: https://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/Zahlen-bitte-3-4-Cor...

Re: Why some governments appear not to be acting on the Covid-19 threat

#386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Freedom of assembly is at an equal level of importance, legally, in the USA, to freedom of speech; they’re set forth in the same amendment. Culturally, freedom of assembly is, if anything, MORE significant for Americans than freedom of speech, it’s just not relevant to Internet forums, so you don’t hear it much discussed online. Neither right is absolute.

What are you trying to express ?

If I understand him right he's pointing out freedom of assembly is just as significant a right for Americans as Danish citizens.

I would go a step further and argue it is much more significant to American culture than Danish, and I feel my opinion carries at least some weight given I am a Danish person living in California.

Re: Why some governments appear not to be acting on the Covid-19 threat

#387
post #20
post #2

Doesn't seem very well thought out. The economic cost of the first scenario (numerous deaths in peak period) would likely be the highest with the impact both on workforce and market sentiment. The impact of long tail scenarios lower because death toll would not be just redistributed but also reduced by likely an order of magnitude.

No it's not. It's just one guy making up random shit on a blog and is pretending that governments think like him. The reality is probably closer to the fact that there isn't anything governments can do about it. They can try to shut down the borders of the country, but that is going to a lot worse and probably won't stop it anyways. Just because governments can do something and do do something doesn't mean that that…

He's not just making shit up--the curves are reasonable. However, where he's very, very wrong is thinking that the government is deliberately waiting from T1 to T2. We don't have enough data to actually figure where T1, T2 and T3 are, and counting it in terms of known cases ensures you blow past T2. Look how fast Italy went from first infections to T3.

Re: Why some governments appear not to be acting on the Covid-19 threat

#388
post #331
post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That seems to be exactly the reason in Germany. The federal government has no say regarding public gatherings or schools. They have given out recommendations, some have followed, others have not. There's no repercussion for cities not following the government's decision.

You can hide behind "I lack the legal authority" or you can act. This is one of the rare occasions that absolutely do call for the old "ask for forgiveness" mentality. Nobody in the lower tiers would complain about central government to take a very difficult decision off their plate. ( some people will complain, those who still think they can just pretend that the epidemic does not happen, but they will complain anyw…

The difference is that, in China, if you don't comply the state security detains you and you get sentenced to re-education camp at best.

In other places there are no real consequences for you, even if people die. But there are legal and economic consequences if you shut down without top cover. That is why the government and legislative paralysis is so damaging -- with no safety net, people will prefer the unknown loss over the certain loss.

Re: Why some governments appear not to be acting on the Covid-19 threat

#389

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't find any differentiation between early stage and later stage nor references to exponential functions: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_modelling_of_infe... If you find any source, idealy scientific papers on the subject, that shows that contagious diseases can be modelled with simple exponential functions, please share them. I am not an expert on that matter, so I would be really interessted to see…

Ok, look at the differential equations on this page about the Kermack-McKendrick model: https://mathworld.wolfram.com/Kermack-McKendrickModel.html Notice that the rate of change in the infected population ( dI/dt ) is proportional to the current number of infected ( I ) and the current number of susceptible ( S ). In the early stages, when S is large and I is still small, this acts just like an exponential function i…

Yeah, exactly. In the beginning exponential, later on not anymore. Without changing the equation. So, no, not exponential. Because, you know, very early on an exponential graph can approximated by something non-exponential. Would be utter BS, sure, so nobody does it.

Re: Why some governments appear not to be acting on the Covid-19 threat

#390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't find any differentiation between early stage and later stage nor references to exponential functions: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_modelling_of_infe... If you find any source, idealy scientific papers on the subject, that shows that contagious diseases can be modelled with simple exponential functions, please share them. I am not an expert on that matter, so I would be really interessted to see…

In your link, look at this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_modelling_of_infe... S = N - I - R, and lets used normalized ratios, so i = I/N, r = R/N, etc... so the dynamics of i are given by: di/dt = beta (1 - i - r) i - gamma i di/dt = (beta - gamma) i - beta (i^2 + ri) At the beginning of the disease, the ratio of infected and recovered is very small, say 1e-5 for 100 cases in a population of 10 million.…

"The initial exponential growth rate"

Key word, initial. Later on, not so much. Which is the whole point, pandemics aren't exponential over the complete run time. So, why not using these formulas at least in the models instead of using exponential equation limited by world population?

Edit:

"It will have an exponentially growing phase, and then an exponentially shrinking phase"

Confirming the point above. Math is a precise science, it's a while since I did stuff like that, but getting equations right or not used to be a big deal back than. And now we talking more serious things than just a grade in an exam.

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