Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in • Hacker News Board

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#261

Post by FireBeyond » Thu, Mar 12, 2020, 4:07 AM UTC

jeffdavis wrote: post #180

c3534l wrote: post #119

Interesting. I was never a fan of AA and I was very critical in the lack of science and rigor in addiction treatment, and actually for mental health in general. I always felt there were better treatments, but CBT-based group therapy / 12-step alternatives are pretty rare. All you really need to start a chapter of AA is to not have one nearby and a place to host it. It's comforting that AA at least doesn't make things…

"I'm still not comfortable with the fact that the government will require people to attend what is essentially a religious service as criminal punishment" Maybe there's some kind of slippery slope there, where they eventually start sending you to church for a parking ticket. But we don't seem to be sliding to that conclusion very quickly; so if it works, just go with it. If you want to make a big federal case out of…

Boise is dealing with this.

A few homeless shelters are "open", even when they don't have beds. They require mandated participation in multiple religious activities per day.

Boise statutes say "If a homeless shelter is open, you can be arrested and jailed for sleeping on the streets", and "but I don't want to be subjected to mandatory religious activities for only the _potential_ of a bed at the end of the day" is not considered an excuse.

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#262

Post by jeffdavis » Thu, Mar 12, 2020, 4:13 AM UTC

zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC wrote: post #201

jeffdavis wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I'm still not comfortable with the fact that the government will require people to attend what is essentially a religious service as criminal punishment" Maybe there's some kind of slippery slope there, where they eventually start sending you to church for a parking ticket. But we don't seem to be sliding to that conclusion very quickly; so if it works, just go with it. If you want to make a big federal case out of…

> But I honestly don't see how anyone wins with that outcome. Then you presumably aren't aware of how abusive religious people can be towards atheists, and that includes in AA groups.

It's one thing to criticize religious impositions on a secular activity (like addiction recovery). What you have just done is criticize religious people as a group, and claim that they are abusive.

Criticize ideas and policies; not groups of people.

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#263

Post by athrowaway69 » Thu, Mar 12, 2020, 4:23 AM UTC

iateanapple wrote: post #205

athrowaway69 wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had other experiences. The friendships I had in AA were superficial. Once, when I was struggling and needed help and people to talk to, I was completely ignored by the people around me. They didn't want to help the struggling - just to have this toxic positivity that nothing is wrong. I later moved out of state. I came back to visit family, and went back to a meeting to find out that there were rumors that I had re…

> When I moved, the meetings I encountered were extremely hostile to atheists. In my experience there are two types of atheists who go to AA: those for whom religion “isn’t their thing” and those who are actively hostile to religion. I think the latter group should find an alternative to AA.

Nice. Blaming the victim and implying I was the hostile one.

I'm respectful of others' religions. It's a private matter. I made friends, ostensibly, until they found out I was an atheist.

So fuck right off with your pseudo-righteous bullshit, okay?

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#264

Post by lazyasciiart » Thu, Mar 12, 2020, 4:45 AM UTC

im3w1l wrote: post #232

notafraudster wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think you could elaborate why you believe this is "heavy-duty" new research (or even new research at all, rather than a new meta-analytic synthesis of old research)? My quick read of the study suggests that they examined several outcomes, got null or low powered results on most of them, and chose to highlight the single result which did show a significantly positive effect on recovery; that result was based on…

Sorry for going on a rant here, but I dislike the framing implicit in "spontaneous remission". Addiction does vanish spontaneously with a wave of a wand. These are people of flesh and blood and free will that managed to overcome their addiction. They are making attempts at treating themselves. They might be reading blog posts with advice. They may avoid buying alcohol for fear they'll drink it all. They be taking det…

It's spontaneous because it is not caused by the external treatment. It's not a misnomer so much as a difference in usage. When you say a person did something spontaneously, it means it was impulsive, not caused by anything, and has connotations of being a sudden or easy action. When you say an event was spontaneous, there is no reference to meaning or intensity of the event - it simply means that there was no external cause.

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#265

Post by apatters » Thu, Mar 12, 2020, 4:50 AM UTC

elixanchor wrote: post #115

recovering addict here. some words for those who may be struggling. i tried a number of things over many years (life coach, therapy, meditation retreats, ayahuasca, ibogaine, etc). i reached a bottom, and nothing i had tried really worked or stuck. kept relapsing after a few months of sobriety at most. ultimately it was going to AA that i largely credit to my successful transformation into a happy life of sobriety. i…

AA's 12 Steps use the word God four times. They also refer to "Him" three times, to a higher "Power," a "spiritual awakening," and prayer.

Nearly every step has a reference to spirituality of some kind and most of them are laced with Christian undertones.

More generally the idea behind the 12 steps is to place yourself in the hands of this higher power and allow it to guide you. Basically it requires a belief in prayer.

AA has worked for many many people--which is wonderful and it is demonstrably a great tool for them! But an atheist, humanist, or more generally someone who doesn't believe in spirituality is going to have to go through significant mental gymnastics to deal with the 12 Steps.

It seems to me that if someone doesn't believe in God or a higher power of any kind, there are probably better first line treatments for alcohol addiction. It isn't necessary for an atheist to change their spiritual or religious beliefs in order to recover. Therapy, medication and secular support groups all exist.

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#266

Post by ada1981 » Thu, Mar 12, 2020, 5:11 AM UTC

notafraudster wrote: post #199

dang wrote: post #190

So far the comments have been about people's prior experiences with the topic (which is great), or prior opinions about the topic (which is ok). But the more interesting story is being overlooked: this is heavy-duty new research that overturns previous conclusions, including the prior expectations of at least one of the lead authors. It would be good to discuss the specifics of the article and the new study.

Do you think you could elaborate why you believe this is "heavy-duty" new research (or even new research at all, rather than a new meta-analytic synthesis of old research)? My quick read of the study suggests that they examined several outcomes, got null or low powered results on most of them, and chose to highlight the single result which did show a significantly positive effect on recovery; that result was based on…

Are you available for hire of analysis of research?

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#267

Post by prawn » Thu, Mar 12, 2020, 5:22 AM UTC

thulecitizen wrote: post #259

Dear Dang, what does your admin toolset look like? Have you written about that anywhere? I'm curious, is this post of yours at the top because it has the most upvotes, or because you are pinning it here?

I've always assumed that some top level posts are elevated based on the quality/upvotes of their best replies.

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#268

Post by MaysonL » Thu, Mar 12, 2020, 5:25 AM UTC

Those interested in A.A.'s official position on atheism and agnosticism should check out the pamphlet[0] Many Paths to Spirituality published recently by AA World Services, the legal entity responsible to North American A.A.. The link is to a product page - click on the picture of the pamphlet to download a pdf. There are sober atheists in AA. To anyone who gets a bad reaction to professed atheism in an AA meeting, remind the offenders of AA's Tradiion 3: "THE ONLY REQUIREMENT FOR AA MEMBERSHIP IS A DESIRE TO STOP DRINKING". If they persist, find or start another meeting.

[0]https://www.aa.org/assets/en_US/aa-literature/p-84-many-path...

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#269

Post by bawolff » Thu, Mar 12, 2020, 5:34 AM UTC

toofy wrote: post #169

athrowaway69 wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had other experiences. The friendships I had in AA were superficial. Once, when I was struggling and needed help and people to talk to, I was completely ignored by the people around me. They didn't want to help the struggling - just to have this toxic positivity that nothing is wrong. I later moved out of state. I came back to visit family, and went back to a meeting to find out that there were rumors that I had re…

> ... and went back to a meeting to find out that there were rumors that I had relapsed after I moved and continued using until I was homeless. It was a drama fest. I obviously don’t have your unique and nuanced understanding of the situation, but this seems like a common occurrence with all humans when they lack information. In my experience when we don’t have information, our group tendencies lean towards filling g…

Humans might have a tendency to gossip...but what's described sounds pretty extreme and well, toxic.

To make the broader point, just because humans tend to be assholes does not mean we should accept people being assholes as "natural" or ok.

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#270

Post by emmelaich » Thu, Mar 12, 2020, 5:38 AM UTC

im3w1l wrote: post #232

notafraudster wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think you could elaborate why you believe this is "heavy-duty" new research (or even new research at all, rather than a new meta-analytic synthesis of old research)? My quick read of the study suggests that they examined several outcomes, got null or low powered results on most of them, and chose to highlight the single result which did show a significantly positive effect on recovery; that result was based on…

Sorry for going on a rant here, but I dislike the framing implicit in "spontaneous remission". Addiction does vanish spontaneously with a wave of a wand. These are people of flesh and blood and free will that managed to overcome their addiction. They are making attempts at treating themselves. They might be reading blog posts with advice. They may avoid buying alcohol for fear they'll drink it all. They be taking det…

does not vanish?