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Man's 'experiments' with explosives were lawful, court rules

theguardian.com

81–90 of 114 posts

Re: Man's 'experiments' with explosives were lawful, court rules

#81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the intent is to protect people from phosphorus, I'd just like to point out that you can buy large amounts of gasoline without any paperwork, without even raising any eyebrows. If somebody wants to commit arson, bullshit regulations on phosphorus won't stop them. Nor does it require any knowledge a gradeschooler doesn't possess. This isn't even academic, a maniac killed 36 people like this in Japan last year. If t…

I share your position, but the obvious counterpart to this is that many regular people need access to gasoline as part of their daily lives. not so with phosphorus. in general, I don't think citizens should have to answer "why do you need this?" to the government, but you're not really comparing apples to apples here.

If you want to deprive someone of their access to phosphorus, you need to deprive them of either their access to urine, or their ability to boil liquid.

I don't know what that endgame looks like, but I'm not a fan of it.

Re: Man's 'experiments' with explosives were lawful, court rules

#82
post #12

For context, the UK has suffered a number of terrorist bombings over the years; explosives are controlled substances, and anyone making them without a license will have the terrorism book thrown at them. Not really much point in spending two decades in Afghanistan "fighting terrorism" if you're going to let people brew TATP in their bathtubs like the 7/7 bombers. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchester_Arena_bombi…

"The Explosive Substances Act was quickly passed by parliament in 1883 in response to fears of Irish nationalist bomb attacks and because previous offences were thought to provide insufficient protection for the public." Looking at the above list, it seems that terrorists are going to make bombs despite this venerable law. Who would have thought!

Yeah, pretty much my thought. The real question is "how many bombers were arrested ahead of time due to this law", which is a bit harder to answer though.

Re: Man's 'experiments' with explosives were lawful, court rules

#83
post #5

I hate how chemistry can land people in legal hot water due to overzealous government policies. While this example is not in the UK. It's illegal to own certain glassware without a permit in Texas for instance. The glassware is considered a drug precursor, like freaking glassware. Oh also federally the DEA treats Phosphorus as a type 1 precursor to meth. That's a freaking element! An element is illegal/regulated like…

Uranium-238 is just an element as well. However that is very highly regulated and I think is a very good thing for it be.

Re: Man's 'experiments' with explosives were lawful, court rules

#84
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There has to be some line where we say that an item is too dangerous for any random individual to own. Glassware should be unregulated, but if someone wants a nuclear bomb, I want to know who they are and what they plan on doing with it.

Do you know the names of the people in your own country who have nuclear weapons? Do you have access to the information about what they intend to do with them? Is it, perhaps, illegal for them to even tell you?

In the US the person who has nuclear weapons is Dan Brouillette.

Re: Man's 'experiments' with explosives were lawful, court rules

#85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By that definition, there are no free states except for Somalia, as nearly all countries except for the US ban private ownership of firearms.

The constitution of Somalia[0] is actually a fairly interesting read, at least if you have a big imagination. Not sure I'd exactly characterize it as a "free state" though. [0] http://hrlibrary.umn.edu/research/Somalia-Constitution2012.p...

Shut up, you'll annoy the an-caps with your example of their fantasy world failing in reality!

Re: Man's 'experiments' with explosives were lawful, court rules

#86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gasoline in the quantities required to burn down a building with people inside it is, for the intents and purposes of an arsonist, unregulated. They might yell at you if you use an unapproved jerry can, but otherwise it may as well be unregulated as far as homicidal nut is concerned. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyoto_Animation_arson_attack

Buildings are pretty flammable on their own - people die in house and building fires without any gasoline being involved whatsoever. An animation studio filled with paper, without a fire supression system, and possibly without fire escapes is no exception. When holding out the kyoto animation studio tragedy - are you sure you're not arguing for better fire codes and gasoline regulation, rather than the deregulation o…

By all means write better fire codes, but unless you wrap yourself in a mile of asbestos blankets I don't think anything you do will render you immune to burning gasoline. There is nothing you or any government can do to stop a nutjob from killing you with gasoline.

Yet here you are, unscathed. Nobody has thrown gasoline at you yet, and probably nobody ever will. Why? It's not because of any gasoline regulations, nor because of your reaction time to smells, nor because of tanker truck regulations, or anything like that. The true reason nobody has lit you on fire yet is because there aren't really that many arsonists who want to light you on fire. That's it; it rarely happens because it's rare that anybody has the inclination to do it.

So how about phosphorus crime? Is that common? No, and I see no rational reason to believe it would be more common than gasoline attacks if phosphorous were as unregulated as gasoline. Even if phosphorus were unregulated, the market demand for it would be low and therefore few stores would sell it. Gasoline would remain the obvious accelerant for any would-be-arsonist.

Re: Man's 'experiments' with explosives were lawful, court rules

#87
post #4

I mean, you really ought to be able to experiment with explosives in a free country, as long as you're not hurting anyone / planning to hurt anyone. It's obviously legal when companies in the industry do it. Why shouldn't it be for private citizens.

I was under the impression that like firearms in the UK you need to have special licenses to use explosives that people can apply for https://www.hse.gov.uk/explosives/licensing/how-to-apply.htm

If you're thinking of an EPP licence, that's only for a handful of specifically restricted chemicals.

Re: Man's 'experiments' with explosives were lawful, court rules

#88
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The constitution of Somalia[0] is actually a fairly interesting read, at least if you have a big imagination. Not sure I'd exactly characterize it as a "free state" though. [0] http://hrlibrary.umn.edu/research/Somalia-Constitution2012.p...

Shut up, you'll annoy the an-caps with your example of their fantasy world failing in reality!

Why would a failed state like Somalia having a restrictive constitution make an an-cap unhappy?

Re: Man's 'experiments' with explosives were lawful, court rules

#89
post #66
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

”as long as you're not hurting anyone / planning to hurt anyone” By that definition, car racing on public streets, running red lights and ignoring speed limits is absolutely fine, as long as you’re not hurting anyone / planning to hurt anyone. Regulations that limit the risks people get exposed to exist for a reason: you can’t undo damage done to others by punishing the culprit. That’s why, for example, reckless driv…

You’re talking apples and oranges here - public streets are filled with, well, the public, and we have laws against racing and running red lights for that very reason. On the other hand, if you own forty acres in New Mexico and want to blow up an old washing machine with a pound of C4 on a lazy Saturday afternoon, well, more power to ya.

I’m not saying people shouldn’t be able to do that, just that, if society sets rules, they should be followed, and can restrict what you can and cannot do.

For example, if you buy that C4, how does it get on your land?

If you make it yourself, how do the ingredients get on your land? Is that safe for the public? Does the process produce waste (gases, liquids) that may cause damage to neighbors or the environment?

If one of your experiments doesn’t go ‘boom’, do you toss what’s left in the garbage bin, or do you think that should be regulated?

Do you make precautions so that playing kids can’t accidentally enter the area? Do you calculate how far parts of that washing machine may get thrown away, to make sure parts don’t end up in your neighbors house?

Re: Man's 'experiments' with explosives were lawful, court rules

#90
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This rationale ad absurdum would suggest you should be able to keep a nuclear bomb without proving anything to the state - an equally terrifying prospect. I doubt you're advocating for unrestricted access to nuclear bombs any more than 3pt14159 is advocating for restricting access to table salt (and I haven't seen 3pt14159 suggest glassware should be restricted either.) The question, then, is where to draw the line.…

> This rationale ad absurdum would suggest you should be able to keep a nuclear bomb without proving anything to the state - an equally terrifying prospect. This is precisely what other states do. Remember for a moment that nations are fictions, and jurisdictions are fairy tales. How is johnny down the road with a nuclear weapon any different than some other person unknown to you in military of the next country over…

> Your regulation can not extend to the whole planet

I'd generally agree, but I happen to be from the USA - and my government spends an outlandish amount of money on military and diplomacy and geopolitical manuvering - which while perhaps not having the rigorous structure and definition of "regulation" - serves much the same purpouse.

Casting all this effort aside as mere fictions falls flat.

> should we be trying to kick people out of the nuclear club?

I'll ask a better question: are "we" trying to kick people out of the nuclear club?

Yes. In fact, "we" succeeded in doing so with Ukraine. "We" are certainly trying to keep countries like Iran and North Korea out of the nuclear club - with diplomacy, bribes in the form of economic aid, sanctions, bombs, assassinations, the works.

"We" don't have total control, but regulations don't exert total control either. They are fictions of law that influence results but do not have the binding rigidity of a mathematical proof. They are flawed and imperfect, but that doesn't mean it can't possibly help and has no impact on the real world.

Just as it's unrealistic to perfectly enforce all regulation, it's unrealistic to completely disarm the world, even if we sorely wanted to. So we focus on forcibly disarming those whom we believe to be the worst actors and the most unstable regions of the world, under the pretense of harm reduction (not harm elimination), and negotiate with others in mututal disarmament and observation treaties to ease tensions and reduce (but not eliminate) the chance of accidents. Imperfect, but realistic.

> I just don’t think the risk is as much as you seem to think it is.

I think you've got me pegged as more cautious than I am when it comes to the possibility of industrial or nuclear accidents or terrorism. I might've been asking for that by mirroring your "terrifying" wording. Either that or you're rather on the extreme end of the political spectrum yourself, in favor of deregulation, as I believe I'm less cautious than the average voter on that front, and believe my government to generally be overreacting on behalf of the voters. (Which isn't to say you're wrong, merely that I'm unconvinced.)

I think you're also more worried than I am about the risk of government intervention infringing upon civil liberties. Which isn't to say I'm unworried - in fact, it's the very thing I worry about the most when it comes to the aforementioned government overreaction. But I'm not quite to the point of "no regulation is good regulation", which you're somewhat coming across as.

EDIT: Aww heck, let me explicitly answer this too:

> How is johnny down the road with a nuclear weapon any different than some other person unknown to you in military of the next country over with a nuclear weapon?

Simple: I kinda half maybe partially trust my government, to kinda half maybe partially vet and trust the next country over, to kinda half maybe partially vet and trust their military personel before giving them access to nuclear weapons.

It's not perfect, but it's kinda half maybe partially better than nothing.

If we gave Johnny down the road nukes without vetting him at all, I bet that'd make a lot of countries nervous. Nervous enough to try and pressure us socially and economically into doing so. Maybe even enough to try and interfere with our elections, or use their own bribes, or assassins, or ...

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