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Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

nytimes.com

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Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#241

Post by ineedasername »

xnyan wrote: post #239
iateanapple wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When I moved, the meetings I encountered were extremely hostile to atheists. In my experience there are two types of atheists who go to AA: those for whom religion “isn’t their thing” and those who are actively hostile to religion. I think the latter group should find an alternative to AA.

Why should they find an alternate group? I thought the purpose was to address alcohol addiction. And to what group should they go?

The AA treatment has a component that many atheists may interpret as religious or spiritual. If that's your interpretation, and you are actively hostile to that belief, then your own world view is not compatible with either the treatment path or the social group you will encounter. That is not going to be a high probability scenario for recovery, and it may interfere with others' recovery, and that's why you should find another group.

Which other group? That's a different question. There doesn't have to be an alternative for AA to be a bad option. Though as it turns out, there are many options. A little searching shows there are AA for athiest groups which, presumably, use a modified protocol.

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#242

Post by ineedasername »

3fe9a03ccd14ca5 wrote: post #159
C19is20 wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After 15yrs of a-abuse, 4 bottles of alcover (sodium oxibate? i believe available - prescription only - only in one country) cured me. I bought 2 cases of xtra-strong beer 'just in case', have had 2 cans on my desk for months now. 0 interest in drinking.

Why in the world would you tempt yourself like that?

I've heard of the practice before, it seems a common, if not majority practice.

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#243

Post by zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC »

leetcrew wrote: post #240
zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That power could be the love of your family, wife/husband, kids, the energy that moves the cosmos, or a fucking Zagnut bar. So, either you actually believe that a Zagnut bar is an agent that can help you out of your desparate situation by using its special powers. Or you are intentionally obfuscating the rather obvious fact that indeed, people do not need to surrender to anything or anyone, because obviously it's n…

I'm not an AA person, and frankly, from what I know about it, I find it somewhat off-putting . still, I will try and be charitable here. I have a hard time going to the gym consistently. I know it's good for me, but I just don't like going very much. so I make plans with other people to go to the gym together. if I flake, often they say something about it the next day, which is annoying but ultimately helpful. acknow…

So, other people are a Zagnut bar?

The point here is that there is no "higher power" involved. It's other people or you yourself, or possibly both, neither of which in any meaningful sense qualifies as a "higher power", and either of which has a completely unambiguous, non-confusing term to refer to it: "Other people" and "yourself". The point is that it is dishonest to then pretend that somehow a Zagnut bar could plausibly be an agent helping you instead of simply saying the obvious: It's most certainly not the Zagnut bar, so what's left is you yourself and/or other people.

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#244

Post by D-Coder »

throwaway47699 wrote: post #176
alharith wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fallacy I can't help but point out here is that thinking because of our science we are better off and have somehow been "enlightened" when all evidence points to the contrary, at least not to the things that truly matter: the human condition, life, love, family, relationships: can't say our science and techology has made these things better on a whole, but at least we can binge watch Netflix and play Minecraft to…

Sorry if it's a little glib, but the first thing that came to my mind after reading this post was: "But apart from medicine, effective sanitation, drastically higher chances of living a long life, material welfare, peace and declining violence, and a near end to famines and legal slavery, what has the Enlightenment ever done for us?" Sure, WWII claimed 3% of the world population, but Tamerlane got 5% and Genghis Khan…

Thank you for this.

I hear lots of people complain about how bad things are. So I ask them if they know the difference between typhus and typhoid.

They never do, because at least in developed countries we never see either of those.

As backup, I ask them how many people they know who have died of starvation, religious pogroms, or smallpox.

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#245

Post by tanseydavid »

c3534l wrote: post #185
ggrrttyy wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I found SMART recovery, which is very welcome to atheists and based on CBT. That group helped me quite a bit in my recovery.

That's what I did, too. It helped me more than AA.

There are plenty of atheists in AA -- and they are welcomed.

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#246

Post by leetcrew »

zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC wrote: post #243
leetcrew wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not an AA person, and frankly, from what I know about it, I find it somewhat off-putting . still, I will try and be charitable here. I have a hard time going to the gym consistently. I know it's good for me, but I just don't like going very much. so I make plans with other people to go to the gym together. if I flake, often they say something about it the next day, which is annoying but ultimately helpful. acknow…

So, other people are a Zagnut bar? The point here is that there is no "higher power" involved. It's other people or you yourself, or possibly both, neither of which in any meaningful sense qualifies as a "higher power", and either of which has a completely unambiguous, non-confusing term to refer to it: "Other people" and "yourself". The point is that it is dishonest to then pretend that somehow a Zagnut bar could pl…

tbh I always feel like AA people are shooting themselves in the foot with these silly examples of a "higher power", especially on forums like this one. I doubt anyone earnestly surrenders themselves to a candy bar or fire extinguisher, but I'm certainly not knocking it if it helps someone.

I think the point is that you need some sort of mind hack to escape the paradigm of will vs. desire which has been a losing battle thus far for most addicts. it is ultimately your will that prevails, but you have to trick yourself otherwise for it to work.

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#248

Post by daseiner1 »

athrowaway69 wrote: post #151
fenwick67 wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've definitely heard this several times that "a higher power in AA can be anything, it can be the fire extinguisher on the wall!". But if that were really the intent of the program then why do they have a prayer where they ask capital-G-God for help every meeting?

There is no shortage of meetings where you're expected to submit to the Christian God, where the people will be hostile to someone they find out is an atheist. They'll still use the "your higher power can be the door knob!" bit, too.

and there’s no shortage of other meetings to go to

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#249

Post by daseiner1 »

taurath wrote: post #87
saberience wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there's a major understanding of this part of AA. This DOES NOT mean acknowledging that you believe there is a god. The concept of a "higher power" can mean anything you want it to mean. You can imagine your higher power is Gandalf, Sauron, elves at the bottom of the garden, or even some aspect of your "best self." You could imagine it to be the spirits of your ancestors or even something like the energy of t…

> Don't get tied up in militant atheist perspectives. Not that you're saying its not, but I'd grasp onto this to add a point that its valid and useful to debate whether that surrendering is the best path. In my mind, what you're being asked to do is abstract and make a virtual externalization of your ego. The benefit is you can get some of the benefits of ego-depletion or ego-loss, but the side effect is that it risk…

all that and you entirely missed the point. surrender as a broad concept is necessary because alcoholism is an illogical, slippery disease. to get sober, you have to accept that you cannot do something that it seems like everyone else can

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#250

Post by daseiner1 »

zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC wrote: post #209
fat_cam wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a current and active member of AA, let me re-affirm that this battle over a "higher power" exists inside the rooms of AA just as everyone is arguing about it here. A great many alcoholics let them selves get hung up on the concept of a higher power, or more specifically, the word "God". The word God appears 134 times in the first 164 pages of the Big Book. For many non religious people as well as non Christian peo…

> That power could be the love of your family, wife/husband, kids, the energy that moves the cosmos, or a fucking Zagnut bar. So, either you actually believe that a Zagnut bar is an agent that can help you out of your desparate situation by using its special powers. Or you are intentionally obfuscating the rather obvious fact that indeed, people do not need to surrender to anything or anyone, because obviously it's n…

missing the point entirely. alcoholism is illogical. alcoholism is not something one can control. surrender is a key part of the program because to get sober the alcoholic must accept that they cannot do something that it seems everyone else can (drink)
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