I am 7 years sober via the AA path after trying just about everything else. I really, really didn't want to go into an AA room the first time and even when I mustered the courage to try it I almost drove out of the parking lot :). The decision to walk into the room changed my life. There are many paths to recovery but if you are at a point or have questions you would like to ask privately please reach out to me anony…
Did you ever read Roger Ebert's homage to AA? If not, you might enjoy it. https://www.rogerebert.com/rogers-journal/my-name-is-roger-a...
Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in
191–200 of 366 posts
Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in
#192Little known fact: Bill Wilson[1], co-founder of Alcoholics Anonymous, believed LSD could help alcoholics achieve a "spiritual experience" that was crucial to them attaining sobriety[2] (incidentally, that a spiritual experience could help alcoholics was an idea he got from Carl Jung[3]). Wilson's own experiences with LSD are discussed in detail here: [4] In the 50's and 60's there was research in to using LSD to tre…
Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in
#193Earlier quoted context omitted.
After 15yrs of a-abuse, 4 bottles of alcover (sodium oxibate? i believe available - prescription only - only in one country) cured me. I bought 2 cases of xtra-strong beer 'just in case', have had 2 cans on my desk for months now. 0 interest in drinking.
Why in the world would you tempt yourself like that?
Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in
#194I didn’t do AA but did AlAnon for children of alcoholics recovering from trauma. Despite what people think, the 12 step program is super light on the spirituality stuff and very atheist friendly. As a recovery group AlAnon was super useful for getting some closure on the hell my parents dragged me through and just leaving that stuff behind. Edit:I guess I should have qualified that I’ve only done support groups in SF…
> the 12 step program is super light on the spirituality stuff and very atheist friendly This is highly dependent on where you are. I experienced verbal abuse and was made to feel unwelcome at meetings when people found out I'm an atheist. People have told me, verbatim, "You don't belong here if you're denying God". Needless to say, I am no longer a part of that little cult. I'm doing fine without it.
Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in
#195I lost one of my best friends to alcoholism about a month ago. My friend was 54 years old. AA is good. It does help, but it's not an absolute cure. It does seem better than most (all?) of the other methods. The very best way forward is simply to not take the first drink, ever. (This is what I am hypocritically telling my children. I drank to excess in my younger days, but I've been dry for about 20 years.) I hope the…
The best way to avoid dying in a car crash is to never get into a car, ever, but we're not advocating that, are we? Car crashes kill more people in the US than alcohol abuse. I get that you're afraid that your kids will end up abusing alcohol, but I think you do them a disservice by painting the world so black-and-white. Avoiding alcohol can have many good effects, but it can also leave people out of many valuable so…
Alcohol qua alcohol is a pretty terrible drug, toxic in reasonable doses, very addictive, affects judgement, and so on and so forth. I happen to think in a culture with a sane attitude towards drugs in general, alcohol wouldn't be a favorite.
Mormons, Muslims, straight-edgers, teetotalers, and alcoholics, all manage to socialize and conduct business just fine while never touching alcohol. Literally all you have to do is order soda water. Anyone who gives you crap for not drinking is going to turn out to have other bad habits, bet money on this.
GP is right: the absolute best way to avoid problems with alcohol is to not drink it. Considering GP was a problem drinker, and that has a genetic basis, you are being arrogant as hell telling him how to raise his children.
Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in
#196Little known fact: Bill Wilson[1], co-founder of Alcoholics Anonymous, believed LSD could help alcoholics achieve a "spiritual experience" that was crucial to them attaining sobriety[2] (incidentally, that a spiritual experience could help alcoholics was an idea he got from Carl Jung[3]). Wilson's own experiences with LSD are discussed in detail here: [4] In the 50's and 60's there was research in to using LSD to tre…
Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in
#197Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think there's a major understanding of this part of AA. This DOES NOT mean acknowledging that you believe there is a god. The concept of a "higher power" can mean anything you want it to mean. You can imagine your higher power is Gandalf, Sauron, elves at the bottom of the garden, or even some aspect of your "best self." You could imagine it to be the spirits of your ancestors or even something like the energy of t…
> Don't get tied up in militant atheist perspectives. Not that you're saying its not, but I'd grasp onto this to add a point that its valid and useful to debate whether that surrendering is the best path. In my mind, what you're being asked to do is abstract and make a virtual externalization of your ego. The benefit is you can get some of the benefits of ego-depletion or ego-loss, but the side effect is that it risk…
Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in
#198Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Don't get tied up in militant atheist perspectives. Not that you're saying its not, but I'd grasp onto this to add a point that its valid and useful to debate whether that surrendering is the best path. In my mind, what you're being asked to do is abstract and make a virtual externalization of your ego. The benefit is you can get some of the benefits of ego-depletion or ego-loss, but the side effect is that it risk…
[deleted]
Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in
#199So far the comments have been about people's prior experiences with the topic (which is great), or prior opinions about the topic (which is ok). But the more interesting story is being overlooked: this is heavy-duty new research that overturns previous conclusions, including the prior expectations of at least one of the lead authors. It would be good to discuss the specifics of the article and the new study.
My quick read of the study suggests that they examined several outcomes, got null or low powered results on most of them, and chose to highlight the single result which did show a significantly positive effect on recovery; that result was based on a meta-analytic estimate of the pooled sample of just two studies. In particular, my understanding is that this study found a null on "percentage days abstinent", a null on "longest period of abstinence", a null on "drinks per drinking day", a null on "alcohol-related consequences". For alcohol addiction severity they report the results of one study without doing any original analysis. And for "rates of continuous abstinence" they found a positive effect. In most cases these are graded as "low certainty evidence". The positive effect is claimed to be "high certainty evidence", but the CI / p-value for the positive effect is not adjusted for multiple comparisons -- I don't think that's fatal, but it does speak to the fragility of the outcome.
The other concern I have is that they separate "manualized" treatments (e.g. AA treatments administered according to a protocol) from "non-manualized" (e.g. ad hoc administration of the AA treatment) treatments. This is fine -- we would expect to see that if something about the protocol was useful, the non-manualized treatments would display an attenuated version of the same effect. Instead we get a null on the original positive effect, and a positive effect on one of the original nulls
Finally, the authors seem a little loose with what the comparison groups are. They claim they recruited studies which compared AA to no treatment, but the results are all motivated as being AA versus CBT. What happened to the no treatment studies? Perhaps these are buried in the full text. The rate of spontaneous remission of addiction is believed to be fairly high and most of the past criticism of the efficacy of AA has been motivated by comparison to spontaneous remission.
It strikes me that there is significant distortion of the study findings from the Cochrane write-up to the Stanford press release, and from the Stanford press release to the NYT piece, and that in both cases the distortion is in favour of claiming the study has found affirmative evidence that AA works better, rather than just no evidence to claim it works worse. For instance, one of the thrusts of the NYT piece is that the past Cochrane review was based on a limited number of studies... but the operative finding in this review is based on an even more limited number of studies, even if the pool of studies from which they drew has become larger over the last 15 years.
All of this is from a quick read of the review -- I am off campus right now and don't feel like VPNing or pirating the full text to deep dive the analysis.
Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in
#200Little known fact: Bill Wilson[1], co-founder of Alcoholics Anonymous, believed LSD could help alcoholics achieve a "spiritual experience" that was crucial to them attaining sobriety[2] (incidentally, that a spiritual experience could help alcoholics was an idea he got from Carl Jung[3]). Wilson's own experiences with LSD are discussed in detail here: [4] In the 50's and 60's there was research in to using LSD to tre…
Not even to speak about Ayahuasca (DMT) and Ibogaine. They seem to have even more of these therapeutic properties.