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Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

nytimes.com

141–150 of 366 posts

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#141

I didn’t do AA but did AlAnon for children of alcoholics recovering from trauma. Despite what people think, the 12 step program is super light on the spirituality stuff and very atheist friendly. As a recovery group AlAnon was super useful for getting some closure on the hell my parents dragged me through and just leaving that stuff behind. Edit:I guess I should have qualified that I’ve only done support groups in SF…

My understanding is that they don't even need you to acknowledge a God, just that "there is cosmically something bigger than you and you have no power to govern it" Is that about what you experienced?

The experience varies from group to group, and even between different meeting times at the same group. They all have their own interpretations and subcultures.

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My understanding is that they don't even need you to acknowledge a God, just that "there is cosmically something bigger than you and you have no power to govern it" Is that about what you experienced?

even that is just silly. it is true only when the idea devolves into that kind of tautology. I would obviously let it slide if I needed this kind of thing, but it is clearly cruft.

I suppose but as an existentialist/atheist there are dice rolls that govern my entire life and most are not under my control. Using that belief as a tool to cleave apart guilt, shame, and blame is handy.

The same “dice roller” in the sky that brought me trauma also brought me a high affinity with math and science, some pathway to a great tech career so acknowledging a higher power is really about saying “shits gonna happen, good and bad”

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#143
post #136
post #122

We changed the URL from https://medicalxpress.com/news/2020-03-alcoholics-anonymous-... to one that gives more information about what's going on here.

I couldn't read the NY article due to paywall. I could read the Medicalxpress link.

Users post workarounds in the threads. There's one in this thread. I realize finding it is a chore when there are a ton of comments, but that's a small price to pay for a significantly better article.

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#144

recovering addict here. some words for those who may be struggling. i tried a number of things over many years (life coach, therapy, meditation retreats, ayahuasca, ibogaine, etc). i reached a bottom, and nothing i had tried really worked or stuck. kept relapsing after a few months of sobriety at most. ultimately it was going to AA that i largely credit to my successful transformation into a happy life of sobriety. i…

After 15yrs of a-abuse, 4 bottles of alcover (sodium oxibate? i believe available - prescription only - only in one country) cured me. I bought 2 cases of xtra-strong beer 'just in case', have had 2 cans on my desk for months now. 0 interest in drinking.

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#145
I lost one of my best friends to alcoholism about a month ago. My friend was 54 years old.

AA is good. It does help, but it's not an absolute cure. It does seem better than most (all?) of the other methods.

The very best way forward is simply to not take the first drink, ever. (This is what I am hypocritically telling my children. I drank to excess in my younger days, but I've been dry for about 20 years.) I hope they listen. Booze works for many people, but it's absolutely disastrous for some.

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#146
post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Based on the OP and two other articles (see below), I believe your presumption is mistaken. It's hard to say for sure, because the list of studies included in the meta-analysis hasn't been published yet (that I can find). (Edit: it looks like the study is available at https://www.cochranelibrary.com/cdsr/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD... ) But the articles make it clear that this was a rigorous meta-analysis done by qualifi…

Ok, this article itself measures in terms of continuing to attend meetings, etc Some basic googling found https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/04/the-irr... from 2015, which covers most of my understanding of AA. The measure of success should be relapse after treatment , but AA doesn't have the concept of stopping, and more importantly does not consider relapse after ceasing attendance to be a failure of…

The debunking you're quoting has presumably been superseded by the much higher-quality randomized studies reported on in the article. At least, if that's not the case, then the researchers who've published the new meta-analysis lack even basic competence, which seems unlikely.

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#147

I didn’t do AA but did AlAnon for children of alcoholics recovering from trauma. Despite what people think, the 12 step program is super light on the spirituality stuff and very atheist friendly. As a recovery group AlAnon was super useful for getting some closure on the hell my parents dragged me through and just leaving that stuff behind. Edit:I guess I should have qualified that I’ve only done support groups in SF…

> the 12 step program is super light on the spirituality stuff and very atheist friendly This is highly dependent on where you are. I experienced verbal abuse and was made to feel unwelcome at meetings when people found out I'm an atheist. People have told me, verbatim, "You don't belong here if you're denying God". Needless to say, I am no longer a part of that little cult. I'm doing fine without it.

You know, I've gone to these meetings with a number of people (my mother, who unfortunately lost her battles with it, and other family members/friends). I'll note that I've done this worldwide, to some degree - Japan, USA (east and west coast). I'm saying this to point out that I'm in there as an observer for these people attempting recovery, so this experience is cultivated from multiple viewpoints/locales/etc.

I have witnessed _exactly_ what you're saying, and I've seen people feel so unwelcome that it hurts them more than helps them. It blows my mind the stranglehold that AA has on this industry, given how demeaning it can be to people who are looking for help.

I've seen more success with people going to SMART recovery meetings, which focus on providing a space to talk and seek help without the judgement level associated with AA.

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#148

recovering addict here. some words for those who may be struggling. i tried a number of things over many years (life coach, therapy, meditation retreats, ayahuasca, ibogaine, etc). i reached a bottom, and nothing i had tried really worked or stuck. kept relapsing after a few months of sobriety at most. ultimately it was going to AA that i largely credit to my successful transformation into a happy life of sobriety. i…

Thank you for sharing. Good luck on your continued journey-- wishing you all the best.

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#149

I completely agree with the message that people-helping people is super effective. But I'd like to point out that one of the core tenants of AA is to surrender to a higher power. I'm not advocating in favor of religion. But rather highlighting that maybe people who accept 'surrender' of their own will are more likely to get better. There's something to the concept that seems powerful. Anecdotally, I've known someone…

I think there's a major understanding of this part of AA. This DOES NOT mean acknowledging that you believe there is a god. The concept of a "higher power" can mean anything you want it to mean. You can imagine your higher power is Gandalf, Sauron, elves at the bottom of the garden, or even some aspect of your "best self." You could imagine it to be the spirits of your ancestors or even something like the energy of t…

As a current and active member of AA, let me re-affirm that this battle over a "higher power" exists inside the rooms of AA just as everyone is arguing about it here. A great many alcoholics let them selves get hung up on the concept of a higher power, or more specifically, the word "God". The word God appears 134 times in the first 164 pages of the Big Book. For many non religious people as well as non Christian people this presents a huge problem; how can we alleviate the burden of alcoholism without believing in God?

Within the 12 steps of AA, Bill W clearly laid out the answer to this very question. Below I've copied over the first 3 steps of AA.

1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol - that our lives had become unmanageable. 2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity. 3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.

The gist of step 1 is acceptance. Acceptance that our lives are controlled by alcohol. This one is pretty easy for any true alcoholic to admit.

The gist of step 2 is surrender. Step 2 states, "Came to believe a power greater than our selves could restore us to sanity." Coming to believe in something is not the same as flipping a light switch and a light coming on. Surrender here in step 2 deals with admitting that we need the help of something greater then ourselves to restore us to sanity. That power could be the love of your family, wife/husband, kids, the energy that moves the cosmos, or a fucking Zagnut bar. As long as it is a power greater then self, you're good.

The gist of step 3 is faith. The key to not getting hung up here is the statement "God as we understood him". This ties directly back to "a power greater than ourselves". Seeing how the Big Book was initially written in the 1930's, and Bill W himself was a Christian, the word God appears a lot. Before the first edition was published, there was an internal fight between the founding members and contributors to the Big Book on the wording of step 3 in particular. They made a deliberate decision to say "God as we understood him" to include as many people as possible.

I share this with you all because I have been and always will consider myself a non religious person. I have needed to work on the concept of a higher power time and time again. When I first started attending AA meetings I let the God/higher power thing get in the way of my recovery and relapsed many times. Only once I surrendered to the idea that a power greater than myself could alleviate my suffering, was I able to start the road to content sobriety. I hope this helps clear the air for some of you, and if there is anyone out there suffering from alcohol or drugs please find a local AA or NA meeting raise your hand and ask for help.

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#150

Little known fact: Bill Wilson[1], co-founder of Alcoholics Anonymous, believed LSD could help alcoholics achieve a "spiritual experience" that was crucial to them attaining sobriety[2] (incidentally, that a spiritual experience could help alcoholics was an idea he got from Carl Jung[3]). Wilson's own experiences with LSD are discussed in detail here: [4] In the 50's and 60's there was research in to using LSD to tre…

Whoops, looks like I forgot to add the link in footnote 5:

[5] - https://newatlas.com/psychedelic-medicine-lsd-psilocybin-alc...

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