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Saturn's largest moon may be the only place beyond Earth where humans could live

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Re: Saturn's largest moon may be the only place beyond Earth where humans could live

#381

Post by dntbnmpls »

jacobush wrote: post #376
dntbnmpls wrote: post #359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do you have anything else that points to this? I've watched Gattaca 5-6 times I reckon, and never picked up on a hint that Vincent dies. Other than what I wrote, I can't think of anything else. > For the heart beats, I've always interpreted it as the world won't give him a chance because _statistically_ he has a low likelihood of success compared to the "guaranteed" success of genetic engineering. Same. I used to b…

Because the flight windows are so far apart, I interpreted it to mean that Vincent, once there, was set. They couldn't really send him back even if they wanted to. And I read Jeromes suicide as the last act to "cover up" for Vincent (and Jeromes name). What would people say when someone found Jemore, alive or his corpse, in the home on Earth? The last step was to disappear completely. If I recall correctly we were sh…

> Because the flight windows are so far apart, I interpreted it to mean that Vincent, once there, was set. They couldn't really send him back even if they wanted to.

Why would they need to send him back? Just imprison him in Titan. Also, society is based on genetics - where you work, where you live, who you date, etc. How did Vincent expect to live on Titan without Jerome's samples? I think the answer is he never intended to live on Titan because he knew he'd die on the way to Titan. We know that his heart can't handle the journey ( treadmill scene ).

> What would people say when someone found Jemore, alive or his corpse, in the home on Earth?

The same thing the cop said after questioning the wheelchair bound Jerome. Apologize after Jerome berated him and demanded his badge number. Besides, given your point about the flight window, what would it matter? Why would Jerome need to cover for him when Vincent's set on Titan?

I think that Jerome always intended to kill himself from the very beginning ( we know he's suicidal because he's in a wheelchair because of a failed suicide attempt ). Not to "cover up" for whoever he was helping, but because "Jerome wasn't meant to be 2nd place". In the incinerator, "2nd place Jerome" and his silver medal are no more. I also don't think he help vincent for the money or for vincent's sake though they developed a friendship towards the end. We know he was bitter at society ( and himself ) and I think he wanted to screw society once before offing himself.

In the end, it's two people dying to escape their "identity". One trying to erase his "invalid" identity and the other trying to erase his "2nd place" identity. And both perishing in the process.

Re: Saturn's largest moon may be the only place beyond Earth where humans could live

#382

Post by jacobush »

dntbnmpls wrote: post #381
jacobush wrote: post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the flight windows are so far apart, I interpreted it to mean that Vincent, once there, was set. They couldn't really send him back even if they wanted to. And I read Jeromes suicide as the last act to "cover up" for Vincent (and Jeromes name). What would people say when someone found Jemore, alive or his corpse, in the home on Earth? The last step was to disappear completely. If I recall correctly we were sh…

> Because the flight windows are so far apart, I interpreted it to mean that Vincent, once there, was set. They couldn't really send him back even if they wanted to. Why would they need to send him back? Just imprison him in Titan. Also, society is based on genetics - where you work, where you live, who you date, etc. How did Vincent expect to live on Titan without Jerome's samples? I think the answer is he never int…

We do not know that his heart failed during the journey. (It might.) We know that, reasonably, management would want the margin of error on the right side for a high investment journey.

Re: Saturn's largest moon may be the only place beyond Earth where humans could live

#383

Post by JoeAltmaier »

chr1 wrote: post #190
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not? The top of Mt Everest is remarkably similar to Mars surface, for instance. I'd say, tackle the challenges a few at a time, instead of jumping in the deep end! To go further: if you can't establish a colony on the top of Mt Everest, you haven't a prayer of doing it on Mars where there are all the problems and more.

We can establish a colony on top of Mt Everest, it's just not useful or exciting enough to spend money and time on it. Mars is exciting and allows to start a new country, unlike Everest which already belongs to someone.

Still I assert: if you can't colonize Mt Everest, you sure as hell can't colonize Mars.

Re: Saturn's largest moon may be the only place beyond Earth where humans could live

#384

Post by btkramer9 »

magduf wrote: post #334
btkramer9 wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've mostly addressed this in the siblings comments. Mars has all the same resources and more. The way humans went from the moon's orbit to surface is so far off from how it would be done today I would hardly call it and MVP. Both are too far for any meaningful emergency response. I believe the ongoing work with starship debunks your claim of an "un-funded wank-fantasy". The moon also has a disturbingly high failure…

You think 3 days is "too far for any meaningful emergency response"? I mean, yeah, if someone needs to be in an ICU within an hour, that's too long, but if they develop a new coronavirus on the Moon, 3 days to get people back to Earth is not bad. By your logic, it seems like we should just give up on building any bases in this solar system altogether, and just start building a ship to go to Alpha Centauri.

I'm advocating to go directly to Mars and skip trying to figure out everything on the Moon first. The Moon is more difficult and has a lot less upsides.

Obviously 3 days is better than 6 months. A lot more can be done with a shorter window. I just don't think it justifies passing up all the upsides Mars has to offer

Re: Saturn's largest moon may be the only place beyond Earth where humans could live

#385

Post by magduf »

btkramer9 wrote: post #384
magduf wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You think 3 days is "too far for any meaningful emergency response"? I mean, yeah, if someone needs to be in an ICU within an hour, that's too long, but if they develop a new coronavirus on the Moon, 3 days to get people back to Earth is not bad. By your logic, it seems like we should just give up on building any bases in this solar system altogether, and just start building a ship to go to Alpha Centauri.

I'm advocating to go directly to Mars and skip trying to figure out everything on the Moon first. The Moon is more difficult and has a lot less upsides. Obviously 3 days is better than 6 months. A lot more can be done with a shorter window. I just don't think it justifies passing up all the upsides Mars has to offer

I completely disagree about the Moon being more difficult. We can get to the Moon in 3 days flat. We cannot do that with Mars; to go there, humans have to spend months in space being exposed to hard radiation. With the Moon, that isn't a problem because 3 days cosmic radiation exposure isn't a big deal, as proven by our many landings on the Moon in the 60s-70s.

On top of that, the Moon has proven mineral resources which can be mined and refined on-site a lot easier than trying to do the same on Mars.

Mars is just too far away. If you're going to neglect distance, then we should just skip Mars and go straight to Alpha Centauri or some other star with a bunch of exoplanets.

Re: Saturn's largest moon may be the only place beyond Earth where humans could live

#386

Post by dntbnmpls »

jacobush wrote: post #382
dntbnmpls wrote: post #381

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because the flight windows are so far apart, I interpreted it to mean that Vincent, once there, was set. They couldn't really send him back even if they wanted to. Why would they need to send him back? Just imprison him in Titan. Also, society is based on genetics - where you work, where you live, who you date, etc. How did Vincent expect to live on Titan without Jerome's samples? I think the answer is he never int…

We do not know that his heart failed during the journey. (It might.) We know that, reasonably, management would want the margin of error on the right side for a high investment journey.

> We do not know that his heart failed during the journey. (It might.)

Sure. We also do not know his heart didn't fail, though you seem sure it didn't. However, the clues throughout the movie make it fairly obvious that he doesn't make it.

> We know that, reasonably, management would want the margin of error on the right side for a high investment journey.

Sure. And we also know that he has heart problems and is living on borrowed time. We also know that running on the treadmill nearly leaves him breathless and clutching at his chest in terrible coughing fits. There must be a reason why that scene was in the movie. Don't you think?

The ending certainly leaves it open to interpretation. That's what's great about the movie. It didn't spoonfeed the audience. But it did provide hints/clues/etc.

Put it this way, there are tons of clues that he dies. There are no clues that he lives. If he lived, the movie would have some mentioned what he planned to do once on titan. Or any clue that he intended to survive the trip. Like maybe, Vincent telling Jerome, "Hey, I need a few samples to live on Titan" or "Hey, I got a nice apartment on Titan" or "Man, my new job on Titan is great" or anything indicating a life on Titan. Ever notice he never mentions his life on Titan? The only thing he is concerned about is getting on that spaceship.

If you were watching a kamikaze movie and at the end, the pilot flies off with enough fuel to reach the aircraft carrier group but not enough to make it back. Would you argue that he makes it back alive since we never actually see him carry out the attack? Sure, anything is possible, but highly unlikely.

Is it possible Vincent made it to titan? Sure, if they want to do a sequel perhaps. Is it likely? I don't think so. But it's art. Your interpretation is just as valid is mine.

Re: Saturn's largest moon may be the only place beyond Earth where humans could live

#387

Post by jacobush »

dntbnmpls wrote: post #386
jacobush wrote: post #382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We do not know that his heart failed during the journey. (It might.) We know that, reasonably, management would want the margin of error on the right side for a high investment journey.

> We do not know that his heart failed during the journey. (It might.) Sure. We also do not know his heart didn't fail, though you seem sure it didn't. However, the clues throughout the movie make it fairly obvious that he doesn't make it. > We know that, reasonably, management would want the margin of error on the right side for a high investment journey. Sure. And we also know that he has heart problems and is livi…

Since yesterday I have started to remember more about the movie (it was a long time since) and I am starting to lean towards your interpretation. There are many clues, as you say. On my watchings I always took it to be one of those movies where they don't feel the need to show "Book 2" because "Book 1" was the interesting part. This movie is great. I always thought it was good, but now I think it's Great Art. This movie scares me shitless now.

Re: Saturn's largest moon may be the only place beyond Earth where humans could live

#388

Post by jacobush »

throwmamatrain wrote: post #189
dntbnmpls wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 1. The film Gattaca (1999), in addition to being an excellent, inspiring film all around, centers on an aspiring astronaut's upcoming trip to Titan. Highly recommended. Gattaca is one of my favorite films. I agree that it is excellent, but I'm not sure it is inspiring. Gattaca is about how the system, society, circumstances and expectations beyond your control are an albatross around everyone's neck and ultimately…

Very interesting take! I haven't rewatched it, and now I have a reason. I thought the ending was open ended for the reasons discussed further on. Vincent gets to the rocket which was the goal. I also wondered about the cache of materials Jerome leaves behind, was it that he thought Vincent might stay?

... maybe for when he comes back from Titan. Given Titan is a more spartan outpost, and everyone there is presumably accounted for anyway, given you can't exactly stroll over to Titan without going on a rocketship first - maybe for when Vincent comes back from his Titan mission, for retirement or whatever.

Re: Saturn's largest moon may be the only place beyond Earth where humans could live

#389

Post by scrumbledober »

Fjolsvith wrote: post #348
scrumbledober wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A craft that can sustain a 1g thrust for three days straight is the most outlandish idea in this entire thread.

Maybe, but Phd's are thinking about it: https://www.johndcook.com/blog/2012/08/30/flying-to-mars-in-... and https://www.skythisweek.info/constant1g.pdf

talking about how it would be cool if we had a ship that could do that, and the implications of that. In no way is anyone with any serious education actually talking about HOW to possibly get a craft with the mass fraction and specific impulse to pull this off. we are several orders of magnitude off of this being possible when it comes to specific impulse, and the highest impulse engines we have have nowhere near enough thrust to weight.

Re: Saturn's largest moon may be the only place beyond Earth where humans could live

#390

Post by Fjolsvith »

scrumbledober wrote: post #389
Fjolsvith wrote: post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe, but Phd's are thinking about it: https://www.johndcook.com/blog/2012/08/30/flying-to-mars-in-... and https://www.skythisweek.info/constant1g.pdf

talking about how it would be cool if we had a ship that could do that, and the implications of that. In no way is anyone with any serious education actually talking about HOW to possibly get a craft with the mass fraction and specific impulse to pull this off. we are several orders of magnitude off of this being possible when it comes to specific impulse, and the highest impulse engines we have have nowhere near eno…

Seems there are several thruster designs aimed towards this goal:

https://larouchepub.com/other/2019/4622-revolutionary_space_...

And at NASA:

https://www.nasa.gov/pdf/501329main_TA02-InSpaceProp-DRAFT-N...

https://futurism.com/nasas-new-ion-thruster-breaks-records-c...

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